More motto assistance

 
John Mck
 
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John Mck
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03 September 2009 16:07
 

Another translation request:

"Deeper than the Abyss, Higher than the Firmament"

 

And before anyone asks, the reason to use Latin is because I am pretty sure the phrase would be more concise and elegant. IE, shorter. But I could be wrong.

 

Bonus points to anyone who can name the source smile

 
Dale Challener Roe
 
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Dale Challener Roe
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03 September 2009 17:05
 

Not sure about the translation, but I’m pretty sure that’s Tolkien.

 
John Mck
 
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John Mck
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03 September 2009 17:11
 

Dale Challener Roe;71563 wrote:

Not sure about the translation, but I’m pretty sure that’s Tolkien.


Well played! We have a winner!

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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03 September 2009 17:57
 

John Mck;71562 wrote:

"Deeper than the Abyss, Higher than the Firmament"


:10bux:

 

A prize to you Mr. McKelvy for posting a word (firmament) with which I was unfamiliar and had to research.

 

The Latin for this word is firmamentum.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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03 September 2009 17:59
 

David Pritchard;71565 wrote:

:10bux:

A prize to you Mr. McKelvy for posting a word (firmament) with which I was unfamiliar and had to research.

 

The Latin for this word is firmamentum.


C’mon, David, you’re making that up! That’s the oldest trick in the book, taking an English word and adding -um.

 

More seriously:


Quote:

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.  And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.  And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


Genesis 1:6-8 (King James Version)

 
John Mck
 
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John Mck
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03 September 2009 18:20
 

David Pritchard;71565 wrote:

:10bux:

A prize to you Mr. McKelvy for posting a word (firmament) with which I was unfamiliar and had to research.

 

The Latin for this word is firmamentum.


Hath someone absquatulated with your vocabulary?

 
John Mck
 
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John Mck
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03 September 2009 18:34
 

David Pritchard;71565 wrote:

:10bux:

A prize to you Mr. McKelvy for posting a word (firmament) with which I was unfamiliar and had to research.

 

The Latin for this word is firmamentum.


"Caelum" might be a better fit for a motto - simply because it’s shorter.

 
Dcgb7f
 
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Dcgb7f
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05 September 2009 01:36
 

Joseph McMillan;71566 wrote:

C’mon, David, you’re making that up! That’s the oldest trick in the book, taking an English word and adding -um.

Actually, in this case it’s the other way around. English broke into Latin Wordbank, Inc. and made off with—along with many others—"firmamentum." The sneaky English… well, their sneaky Norman French rulers… then laundered the word by dropping -um and claimed it as their own. Despite such compelling evidence as Jerome’s use of the word in his Vulgate translation (Gen 1:6: dixit quoque Deus fiat firmamentum in medio aquarum), with no paper trail, Latin Wordbank’s attorneys lost the case in the international court of History.

 

John: There’s a slight problem to translating this. The latin word for deep (altus) is the same as for high (altus), and so the comparative in both cases is altior. Now, if you want to write a complaint to the CEO of Latin Wordbank, I’ll fully support you. Unfortunately, they went bankrupt a couple of centuries ago. That being said, personally, I sort of like this little twist to the translated motto. If you prefer, however, altior (deeper) can be switched out for the similar adjective profundior, but that might nuance it more than you want. In any case, pending your final choice of adjectives, the translation is Altior Abysso, Altior Firmamento.

 

P.S. If you prefer, you can switch firmamento for caelo.

 
John Mck
 
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John Mck
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05 September 2009 08:45
 

Dcgb7f;71600 wrote:

Actually, in this case it’s the other way around. English broke into Latin Wordbank, Inc. and made off with—along with many others—"firmamentum." The sneaky English… well, their sneaky Norman French rulers… then laundered the word by dropping -um and claimed it as their own. Despite such compelling evidence as Jerome’s use of the word in his Vulgate translation (Gen 1:6: dixit quoque Deus fiat firmamentum in medio aquarum), with no paper trail, Latin Wordbank’s attorneys lost the case in the international court of History.

 

John: There’s a slight problem to translating this. The latin word for deep (altus) is the same as for high (altus), and so the comparative in both cases is altior. Now, if you want to write a complaint to the CEO of Latin Wordbank, I’ll fully support you. Unfortunately, they went bankrupt a couple of centuries ago. That being said, personally, I sort of like this little twist to the translated motto. If you prefer, however, altior (deeper) can be switched out for the similar adjective profundior, but that might nuance it more than you want. In any case, pending your final choice of adjectives, the translation is Altior Abysso, Altior Firmamento.

 

P.S. If you prefer, you can switch firmamento for caelo.

 


Fantastic information - thanks.

 

The original quote actually describes a chord of music in a symphony, so "profound" (if that’s the connotation) might actually work. I probably should have specified that "deeper" and "higher" refer to musical pitch.

 

On the other hand, repeating ‘altior’ with two different meanings has a certain enigmatic charm to it.

 
Dcgb7f
 
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Dcgb7f
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05 September 2009 13:22
 

Profoundus means about the same as it does in English, which in my mind doesn’t seem to go with musical ideas, but what do I know.

The fact that these are referring to musical pitch, actually makes it easier to translate and understand since Latin did have two seperate terms for musical pitch.—Gravior abysso, Acutior firmamento

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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05 September 2009 13:35
 

Don’t know about Latin, but in Musico-Italian the deepest male voice is basso profondo.

 
John Mck
 
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John Mck
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05 September 2009 18:29
 

Dcgb7f;71607 wrote:

Profoundus means about the same as it does in English, which in my mind doesn’t seem to go with musical ideas, but what do I know.

The fact that these are referring to musical pitch, actually makes it easier to translate and understand since Latin did have two seperate terms for musical pitch.—Gravior abysso, Acutior firmamento


Interesting. . . . I prefer the *look* of the altior abysso, altior caelo more

 

- is it still intelligible in the sense that "the music resounded deeper than the abyss and higher than the heavens?"

 

That’s a slight warp of the original quote but within reason. Actually it isn’t even great English wink

 
Dcgb7f
 
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Dcgb7f
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05 September 2009 23:57
 

Quote:

Actually it isn’t even great English

Which makes is harder to translate.

Actually, I’m glad you inserted that verb. I was puzzled by what you were trying to say with "deeper than the abyss and higher than the firmament" because I was thinking that these were comparative adjectives. Now that you turned this phrase into a sentence, it makes sense. It also, however, means that altior needs to be changed since it’s not acting as an adjective, as I had originally thought, but as an adverb. The -ius is the ending for a comparative adverb, while -ior is the one for a comparative adjective. You’re actually not the first to use a string of comparative adverbs with only an implied verb as a motto; the international Olympics does exactly that. —Your new motto is Altius abysso, Altius caelo.

 
John Mck
 
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John Mck
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07 September 2009 13:31
 

Dcgb7f;71622 wrote:

Which makes is harder to translate.

Actually, I’m glad you inserted that verb. I was puzzled by what you were trying to say with "deeper than the abyss and higher than the firmament" because I was thinking that these were comparative adjectives. Now that you turned this phrase into a sentence, it makes sense. It also, however, means that altior needs to be changed since it’s not acting as an adjective, as I had originally thought, but as an adverb. The -ius is the ending for a comparative adverb, while -ior is the one for a comparative adjective. You’re actually not the first to use a string of comparative adverbs with only an implied verb as a motto; the international Olympics does exactly that. —Your new motto is Altius abysso, Altius caelo.


Here’s the original quote:


Quote:

with “one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar, the Music ceased.”


I read those as adjectives, but I can see a case being made for adverbs. Any grammarians willing to set me straight on this one?

 

For now, I think it’s got to be "gravior/acutior." Which is quite good in its own right.

 
Dcgb7f
 
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Dcgb7f
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08 September 2009 01:00
 

Yes, the two phrases in the context of the original quote those are adjectival. In the end, the endings will depend on what you want your motto to mean, whether you want to use the phrase as a direct quote or as an implied message.