Douglas MacArthur

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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16 November 2009 20:30
 

The thread on signet rings prompted me to do a little googling, and one thing led to another, and eventually to the West Point library’s website, with a collection of photos of class rings dating back to 1835. And there, as it happens, was Douglas MacArthur (‘03), with the Scottish arms of MacArthur of Tirivadich engraved on the stone (in reverse, as a seal ring).

<a class=“bbcode_url”>http://digital-library.usma.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/clrings&CISOPTR=269&REC=4</a>

 
Kelisli
 
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Kelisli
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16 November 2009 21:11
 

Thanks, Joe. Very intersting…combining the class ring with the clan’s undifferenced coat of arms, engraved on a bloodstone.  Thanks for sharing.

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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17 November 2009 12:32
 

Great find. I believe Douglas’ grandfather, Gov. Arthur MacArthur Sr., was from Glasgow, Scotland, and supposedly of Clan Arthur. So I don’t think this was someone simply using arms from someone with the same name.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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17 November 2009 21:41
 

arriano;73418 wrote:

Great find. I believe Douglas’ grandfather, Gov. Arthur MacArthur Sr., was from Glasgow, Scotland, and supposedly of Clan Arthur. So I don’t think this was someone simply using arms from someone with the same name.


Oh, I think it probably was.  If Douglas MacArthur had been entitled to use the arms of MacArthur of Tirivadich (or Tirracladdich, as I’ve also seen the same arms attributed), he would have been the MacArthur of Tirivadich.  Until quite recently, these were regarded as the undifferenced arms of the name, and included as such in any collection of Scottish "clan arms."

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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18 November 2009 00:41
 

The late James Edward Moir MacArthur of that Ilk was a member of the HSS and his arms still appear in the members section of their website.


Quote:

In August 2002, the Lord Lyon approved the petition of James MacArthur of Milton, making him the first Chief of Clan Arthur for over 220 years. James MacArthur has served as Commander of the Clan for ten years. The previous Clan Chief, Charles MacArthur of Tirivadich died with no apparent heir.

The new Chief and his predecessor share common ancestors from the late fifteenth century in the persons of John MacArthur of Tirivadich and his son Charles. James MacArthur was the heir male of the third son of Charles MacArthur, one John MacArthur of Drissaig until the more senior lines were proved to have died out.


James

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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19 November 2009 15:36
 

What do we know of Gen. Macarthur’s ancestry beyond (IIRC) his grandfather, also a US Army officer?  Might he (in any proven sense) have been from a Grant line that did bear arms?

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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Michael Y. Medvedev
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20 November 2009 08:23
 

Joseph McMillan;73424 wrote:

If Douglas MacArthur had been entitled to use the arms of MacArthur of Tirivadich (or Tirracladdich, as I’ve also seen the same arms attributed), he would have been the MacArthur of Tirivadich.

Not neccessarily so, dear Joseph. If we apply the strict Scottish norms to the American reality, you are absolutely right here.

But a more liberal concept would IMHO entitle Gen.MacArtur to the plain arms of family only because of being allegedly senior member of his family in the USA, or simply by applying the English rules in their broadest version (in a strictly formal aspect, the latter option would be pretty reasonable).

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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20 November 2009 13:07
 

Michael, you’re right of course.  I was exaggerating a little for effect.  The point is that the notion of "arms of the name" has been around for a long time.  There are tombstones from New York to North Carolina on which the arms of the Duke of Argyll are carved; perhaps all of these can be justified on the principle that all Campbells are descendants of the original Cailein Mor and therefore entitled to the undifferenced arms.  But I think it’s more likely that someone looked in a copy of Guillim or some other old heraldry textbook and copied the arms labelled "Campbell."

By the same logic, I could use the undifferenced MacMillan arms, Or a lion rampant Sable in chief three stars Azure.  All MacMillans are supposedly descended from the original Ghille Mhaoil.  Moreover, since I don’t know who my 4th great grandfather was, I can’t prove that I’m not a direct descendant of some subsequent chief of the clan.  But that strikes me as a slender reed with which to prop up a serious claim.

 

So when I find someone named MacArthur using the arms that are typically given in heraldry textbooks under that name, my presumption is that that’s where they found them, although I accept that it’s always possible that they might be able to trace an actual male-line descent from the original bearer of the arms.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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20 November 2009 20:36
 

I usually agree with Joe on most topics, but not this one.

If Gen Macarthur’s family had legitimately been entitled to these particular arms in their prior home—in this case, Scotland—& brought them over with them, then I could agree—but AFAIK they didn’t.

 

At most, they might have been entitled to use some differenced version & then by our customs could fairly claim to bear that version after they emigrated to the US, with or without further differencing as they chose.

 

Or more likely, like Joe & myself and most others in the US, Gen Grant’s ancestors didn’t legally bear arms in the old country (e.g. Scotland) & thus brought no arms with them.  Once here, like Joe & me and many others, they could if they wished, design & adopt (assume) similar but not identical arms to those of same name in the old country, with no need to apply to a foreign herald e.g. Lyon unless they wished to do so for sentimental reasons.  To claim & bear the undifferenced arms of the chief of their name—or for that matter, any pre-existing arms already borne by others—would be an improper claim of a false identity without genealogical proof.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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20 November 2009 20:57
 

Michael F. McCartney;73484 wrote:

I usually agree with Joe on most topics, but not this one.


Mike, I think we’re actually agreeing, aren’t we?

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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Michael Y. Medvedev
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23 November 2009 16:18
 

Joseph McMillan;73475 wrote:

I was exaggerating a little for effect.

Joseph, so obviously was done by myself. My elaborations were to show in what a way the General in question could betheoretically "entitled" to the arms he bore. Your last explanation, which merely puts the question of anyone’s being "really entitled" aside, is of course much more realistic.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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23 November 2009 20:57
 

After re-reading Joe’s posting, he’s right—we’re on the same page.  My initial reaction was based on a too-quick read—my apologies.

 
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