De Forest arms

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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07 January 2010 17:49
 

What do you folks make of this blazon in Crozier for Henry de Forest?

Or, a lion Gules holding with both forepaws a pennon of the same in chief; in base Azure, three martlets Argent

 

This this a convoluted way of saying:

 

Per fess Or and Azure, in chief a lion holding with both forepaws a pennon, all Gules; in base three martlets Argent

 

??

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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07 January 2010 21:34
 

arriano;74234 wrote:

What do you folks make of this blazon in Crozier for Henry de Forest?

Or, a lion Gules holding with both forepaws a pennon of the same in chief; in base Azure, three martlets Argent

 

This this a convoluted way of saying:

 

Per fess Or and Azure, in chief a lion holding with both forepaws a pennon, all Gules; in base three martlets Argent

 

??


Apparently so.  A history of the De Forests on archive.org, at http://www.archive.org/stream/deforestsofavesn00defo#page/238/mode/2up/search/gules and a few other pages, gives the arms of family of "De Forest of Quartdeville" as "Or, a lion gules holding with his forepaws a pennon of the same; couped with azure, three martlets argent," as well as several variant wordings of the same blazon.  "Coupe’" is the French term for "per fess."

 
davidappleton
 
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davidappleton
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08 January 2010 11:45
 

Though, as Joseph notes, coupé is French blazon for "per fess", the illustrations of the arms, along with the blazon from Crozier, make it seem more likely to me that the field is not divided "per fess", but rather contains a charged base (thus requiring it to be wider than what one would normally expect to be a base’s dimensions).  As such, I would suggest:

Or, a lion holding with his forepaws a pennon gules, issuant from [or, overall, which would have it surmounting the lion] a base azure charged with three martlets argent [or, on a base azure three martlets argent].

 

Or to make my proposed blazons more clear:

 

Or, a lion holding with his forepaws a pennon gules, issuant from a base azure charged with three martlets argent.

 

Or, a lion holding with his forepaws a pennon gules, issuant from on a base azure three martlets argent.  [Admittedly, this blazon feels a bit awkward to me.]

 

Or, a lion holding with his forepaws a pennon gules, overall a base azure charged with three martlets argent.

 

Or, a lion holding with his forepaws a pennon gules, overall on a base azure three martlets argent.

 

Just my two cents’ worth.

 

David

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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08 January 2010 14:22
 

Thanks, although still a bit confusing I think I understand what you’re presenting.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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08 January 2010 16:40
 

Well, the ultimate authoritative source would be the original volume for Flanders of the d’Hozier Armorial General. Unfortunately, while all 879 pages are available digitally at gallica.bnf.fr, they are not searchable. However, the published transcript is on Google books at http://tinyurl.com/ya6kvr7

Entry 33 in the Tournai section of the Department of Flanders is:

 

33 - Nicolas de Forest, conseiller audit Parlement:

D’or, à un lion de gueules, tenant de ses deux paties de devant, une banderole de mesme; coupé, d’azur, à trois pigeons (merlettes) d’argent.

 

I don’t have time to page through the original, but perhaps this entry can help someone narrow the scope of the search.

 

I would be very surprised if the actual arms are anything other than per fess, but it also seems that the image in the De Forest book is probably correct in showing a demi-lion. I’m guessing that coupé in this syntax probably implies the horizontal equivalent of dimidiation, that the charges described before coupé are sliced off horizontally by the field and charges following.

 

By the way, note that the birds in base are properly merlettes (the weird beakless birds of French and Low Countries heraldry) and not martlets (the equally weird but different legless birds if English heraldry).

 
emrys
 
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emrys
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08 January 2010 17:45
 
 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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08 January 2010 18:43
 

And a full lion, not a demi-lion.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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08 January 2010 20:23
 

Somehow the illustration reminds me of my aunts in Kentucky chasing after the chickens for the evening meal… smile

Its highly unlikely that there is a record of why this design was chosen, but one wonders if this was originally a marshalling of two coats, perhaps for marriage or an inheritance.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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09 January 2010 02:56
 

Must have been some tough Aunts to be able to chase Chickens with a lion nearby!  smile

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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09 January 2010 20:55
 

Just found an entry in the NEHGS Roll of Arms, #270:


Quote:

de FOREST, the descendants, living after 1839, of Jesse de Forest, the founder of the Walloon settlement of Manhattan in 1624, who died that year in Guiana; from Avesnes, Hainaut, France.
<div class=“bbcode_indent” >
Arms:  Per fess gold and azure, in chief a demi-lion issuant waving with both paws a pennon all gules, in base three pigeons (martlets?) silver.

</div>

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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11 January 2010 20:48
 

Tough aunts?  You better believe it!  Darwin at work…

But the fried chicken was great!