St. George’s Day

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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23 April 2010 10:27
 

http://www.stgeorgessociety.org/images/ArmorialBearings.jpg

Arms of the St. George Society of New York

 
Peter Harling
 
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Peter Harling
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23 April 2010 14:23
 

Very nice, but where is the Dragon? lol

Regards ................  Peter

 
Madalch
 
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Madalch
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23 April 2010 16:59
 
 
Iain Boyd
 
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Iain Boyd
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23 April 2010 19:59
 

No dragon there, either!

Iain

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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23 April 2010 20:19
 

Peter Harling;76067 wrote:

Very nice, but where is the Dragon? lol

Regards ................ Peter


In a fit of counter-revolutionary zeal, they evidently tossed it aside for the bland contrivance of the English heralds. Here’s the society’s original coat of arms, on a dinner menu from 1898:

 

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=467371&t=w

 

The heralds wouldn’t even let them keep the dragon couchant crest from the previous arms.  Sad.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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23 April 2010 21:35
 

Your research skills are impeccable, Joe, so I assume you are probably correct, but I feel I must ask ... do we know that these were the arms of the society rather than pretty artwork for a significant occasion?

 
 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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23 April 2010 22:49
 

Kenneth Mansfield;76078 wrote:

Your research skills are impeccable, Joe, so I assume you are probably correct, but I feel I must ask ... do we know that these were the arms of the society rather than pretty artwork for a significant occasion?


Well, they used it consistently for their annual dinner menus for a number of years (images in the digital collection of the NY Public Library) and it’s on the title page of the 1913 history of the society at http://books.google.com/books?id=e10uAAAAYAAJ&dq=“saint george’s society” “new york”&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

I guess it might not be a coat of arms, but it sure looks like one; has all th elements—shield, crest, motto.

 

By the way, the St. George’s Society of Philadelphia had similar arms—or at least a shield on a seal.  From their 1814 by-laws at Google Books:


Quote:

RESOLVED,

That the seal of the Society be agreeably to the following description:  A shield bordered with thirteen stars; St. George slaying the dragon, the eye of Providence beaming on him; on a wreath above, a young phoenix rising from the flames. The motto on the upper edge "The Seal of St. George’s Society, Philadelphia."  Round the bottom edge, " I was a stranger, and ye took me in." Over the crest " Add to brotherly love, charity."

 

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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24 April 2010 10:01
 

Joseph McMillan;76075 wrote:

In a fit of counter-revolutionary zeal, they evidently tossed it aside for the bland contrivance of the English heralds. Here’s the society’s original coat of arms, on a dinner menu from 1898:

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=467371&t=w

 

The heralds wouldn’t even let them keep the dragon couchant crest from the previous arms.  Sad.


call me crazy…but…i like these arms better than what is seen above in the previous two.

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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24 April 2010 12:14
 

I would guess that the society changed their arms because a S. George slaying a dragon is none too original.  The College’s design is nice, though I would have preferred two knights as supporters, and had the artist of the etching created a version of the new arms I am sure it would have been equally as attractive.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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24 April 2010 16:00
 

xanderliptak;76092 wrote:

I would guess that the society changed their arms because a S. George slaying a dragon is none too original.


You may be right, but I suspect that someone told them that only arms granted by the English kings of arms are "real," and as an organization that is Anglophile out of principle (I’m not criticizing, just describing), they believed it.

 
Hugh Brady
 
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Hugh Brady
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24 April 2010 21:26
 

There is so much wrong here that I don’t know where to begin.

First, the design of the NY Society’s arms—by Bedingfield—is rather pedestrian and cliche. The crest is especially horrible, and the coronet is particularly uninspired. You would think they could have been somewhat more original.

 

This should also point up to Americans the silliness of seeking a grant from England. The NY Society was forced—forced!—to relinquish its previous arms because "that [design was] already ... appropriated by the Order of the Garter, founded in 1348 ... [a]nother idea, incorporating St. George and the dragon in the crest, was also taken - by the Royal Society of St. George, which was granted arms (designed by Mr. Bedingfeld and the late Garter, Sir Colin Cole, KCVO) in 1990."

 

So the NY Society could have kept its attractive arms had its board not been captured by a fit of misguidedness and kowtowed to Mr. Bedingfield.

 

However, Mr. Bedingfield saw nothing wrong with appropriating "the crest of the City of New York, a Northern hemisphere surmounted by an American eagle, and add[ing] circlet of American stars." I know that this doesn’t make it the same crest technically, but why couldn’t he have done the same to the existing arms by adding a bordure, canton or other difference.

 

Further, apparently the original design had a single blue garb in the dexter chief, which was changed to the garb cotise because, "[a]t the final stage of the process, Garter declared that the single Garb should be changed to split wheat sheaves so that our shield would not appear to be imitating that of the City of London." Heaven forbid!

 

The added straw is that they actually think these arms are better than the ones they had because "[t]he Society was honored in 2000 with armorial bearings by the College of Arms in London, acting under the authority of the British Crown."

 

While I do think the English heralds have done some nice work for their American clients, this episode makes me wonder what they have told those clients in the course of the engagement. The Society thinks they possess some honor, and their arms are nowhere near as nice as what they had.

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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24 April 2010 22:34
 

All of the arms of each society seem uninspired.

The pattern seems simply enough; place some sort of local flora around the cross, then copy the supporters of the city or province and finally throw in a knight.

 

http://www.royalsocietyofstgeorge.com/rssglogo.gif

The arms of the Royal Society of S. George,

produced by the College of Arms.

 

I could only imagine corn would be on an Illinois chapter’s arms.  Perhaps the College would have some humour and use a Blagojevich as a supporter. grin

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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24 April 2010 23:59
 

Saying St. George and the Dragon were already taken was at best disingenuous.  The Order of the Garter does not bear this design as arms, but as a badge.  And even if it did bear it as arms, saying that no one else can therefore use the same motif is like saying there can only be one coat of arms with a lion rampant or three lilies.  On what tincture of field does the order supposedly bear these arms?  What color horse, what color dragon, what color cape for St. George?  What if the field had been per pale Azure and Tenny, with the charges predominantly white—a color combination that would suggest the colors of the city flag.  Does that appear somewhere in the English heralds records?

 
Hugh Brady
 
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Hugh Brady
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25 April 2010 10:58
 

I wonder if part of the problem is that the English heralds simply don’t know enough about America to properly do their job. I think—altho I am not sure because I am too lazy to flip thru my books—that they invariably use an American Indian as a supporter when making these grants. I think the N.C. Senate has two, and there are probably others. Perhaps this is what the requestor asked for. But it’s getting old. I wonder if they even knew that NY City has a flag? (Probably.) It appears that they just don’t put as much work into as they should, especially given the freight charge.

 
Peter Harling
 
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Peter Harling
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25 April 2010 14:13
 

Could it be that the College of Arms wishes to keep the Dragon at home????

Regards ...............  Peter

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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25 April 2010 15:54
 

Peter Harling;76123 wrote:

Could it be that the College of Arms wishes to keep the Dragon at home????

Regards ...............  Peter


I’d believe that.  I could only imagine the horror of the English heralds to learn that their beloved S. George is being used by some simple New Yorker society.  Clearly, you need a royal grant to have something so prestigious.  Which is why we get First Nationers always.  To remind us of our humble origins.