Design Help for a New Member

 
J. Stolarz
 
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J. Stolarz
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28 July 2010 11:08
 

I really don’t like either of those either.  They both look really hectic and over the top.  I agree with Dale and think it would look better without the ermine and additional charges.

 
J. Stolarz
 
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J. Stolarz
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28 July 2010 11:09
 

That one is better…but still isn’t doing it for me.  I’m not a fan of the ermine in most cases though.

 
tsmith
 
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tsmith
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28 July 2010 11:54
 

Does anybody have any thoughts about:

1. Per pale azure and Or a gryphon segreant between three snowflakes counterchanged.

 

or

 

2. Azure a chevron engrailed two snowflakes agrent in chief and a portcullis (or a rose) argent in base

 

Just ideas that are coming to me as I think about things.

 

Travis

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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28 July 2010 11:58
 

tsmith;77991 wrote:

Does anybody have any thoughts about:

1. Per pale azure and Or a gryphon segreant between three snowflakes counterchanged.

I think you’re cramping the griffin when you do that.


Quote:

or

2. Azure a chevron engrailed two snowflakes agrent in chief and a portcullis (or a rose) argent in base


That could be nice with the portcullis. Can’t say I’m a big fan of the rose with the snowflakes.

 
 
tsmith
 
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tsmith
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28 July 2010 12:21
 

I can see how the snowflakes would cramp the gryphon.  Good design if I ditch the snowflakes?

I suppose that the rose could easily be confused with third snowflake at a distance.  I like the idea or either three snowflakes or two snowflakes and the portcullis.

 

Thoughts about having snowflakes in unexpected colors, like black or gold?

 

Something like this:

 

Argent a chevron engrailed between three snowflakes sable.

 

This would be an allusion to Thomas More’s arms, switching out his moorcocks for the snowflakes.

 

Other alternatives might be to have three gryphons or portcullises.

 

Perhaps I am getting to far afield and need to refocus myself.

 

Travis

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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29 July 2010 03:30
 

I’ve enjoyed this extended exchange but haven’t had time to put my 2 cents in yet.  At the (rather high) risk of restating points already made by others, & with the caveat that anything new is purely my opinion at this point—

1) While I agree that historically "blue is blue is blue"—treating light blue as a different color does, by now, have sufficient official & likely unofficial use so as to be "not incorrect" even outside of England & Canada.  It is IMO now a matter of taste.

 

For the sake of full disclosure, I’m a UCLA grad - 1967 - & in the PAC-10 conference (college sports), our light blue & gold is visibly quite different than rival Cal’s dark blue & gold.  I think—or rather IIRC—the "model" was Oxford’s dark blue & Cambridge’s light blue, as used (again IIRC) on the blades of their oars at Henley & such.  Whether that context floats Travis’s boat, only he can say.

 

And "old school" or not, I don’t believe that switching from "azure" to "bleu celeste" would make otherwise identical arms sufficiently different to be considered as heraldically distinct from each other—which is perhaps another way of saying its still just "artistic license" though if the blazon ties the shade of blue down, then that blazon should be honored by any artist emblazoning the arms.

 

2) As much as Travis seems to like ermine, IMO its just too busy for the field if the charge is as intricate as a griffin.

 

3) I rather like the notion of per fess (color & metal—no fur), a griffin etc. counterchanged.  But (as Ken says) maybe that’s just me…

 

4) re: the snowflakes—if there are just three of them, I can see the argument that they might cramp the griffin a bit—tho’ IMO a good artist could overcome that concern.  Alternatively, how about an orle of snowflakes around the griffin?  Each snowflake would of necessity be smaller, & thus less likely to cramp the beastie.  Also, it might appeal to Travis’s apparent liking for a bit of "stuff" on the field but not so intrusive & cluttered as a field semee of whatever.

 

5) as to a bird as a crest—here Ken & I differ a bit.  IMO there should be no objection to a bird "proper" in the crest—conceptually a three-dimensional object—whereas the two-dimensional "flat" image on shield or banner of the arms is much better in plainer, simpler colors.  But again as Ken says, maybe it’s just me…  though the "professional" heralds in England & Canada seem quite frequently to use true-to-life birds & beasts in crests that one would seldom see - in that form - on their shields.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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29 July 2010 08:02
 

Travis,

Have you abandoned the notion, in these last suggestions, of the griffin holding the portcullis or was it mistakenly left off?

 
 
tsmith
 
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tsmith
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29 July 2010 09:40
 

Kenneth,

In the last suggestions involving the chevron engrailed: yes, I would be abandoning the notion of the gryphon holding the portcullis on the shield.  With these designs it might get used as a crest or perhaps a badge.

 

I am just exploring some other alternatives.  My artist and I are trying to narrow things down to two "semi-finalists" if you will, one of which will be the first design that has been much discussed here:

 

Erminois a gryphon segreant bleu celeste* armed and langued gules holding a portcullis argent three snowflakes argent on a chief bleu celeste.

 

*I have heard and considered the arguments against bleu celeste but I like the color especially with the gold and as has been pointed out here there is substantial precedent for its use.  Thank you all for your input on this point.

 

I may in the end abandon the Erminois in favor of Or but that remains to be seen.

 

As of right now I have two contenders for the other semi-finalist position (no gryphons on the shield in these designs):

 

Per fess fir trees bleu celeste and Or three snowflakes 2-1 counterchanged.

 

or

 

Bleu celeste a chevron engrailed Or between two snowflakes argent in chief and a portcullis argent in base.

 

Kenneth, you seem to disfavor the fir tree division line and maybe it is a bit too much "northern exposure" when combined with the snowflakes.  If anybody has any suggestions on how to use the fir tree division line and incorporate some of the other elements I would like to see in the coat let me know.

 

Thanks!

 

Travis

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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29 July 2010 11:39
 

tsmith;78000 wrote:

... My artist and I are trying to narrow things down to two "semi-finalists" if you will, one of which will be the first design that has been much discussed here:

Erminois a gryphon segreant bleu celeste* armed and langued gules holding a portcullis argent three snowflakes argent on a chief bleu celeste.

 

...

 

I may in the end abandon the Erminois in favor of Or but that remains to be seen.

The best choice so far I think (with Or rather than Erminois).


Quote:

As of right now I have two contenders for the other semi-finalist position (no gryphons on the shield in these designs):

Per fess fir trees bleu celeste and Or three snowflakes 2-1 counterchanged.

<div class=“bbcode_center” >
http://a.imageshack.us/img821/1783/smithtravishis3.png
</div>

Quote:

or

Bleu celeste a chevron engrailed Or between two snowflakes argent in chief and a portcullis argent in base.

<div class=“bbcode_center” >
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/9674/smithtravishis4.png
</div>

Quote:

Kenneth, you seem to disfavor the fir tree division line and maybe it is a bit too much "northern exposure" when combined with the snowflakes. If anybody has any suggestions on how to use the fir tree division line and incorporate some of the other elements I would like to see in the coat let me know.

I don’t dislike the partition at all. In fact, I quite like it. I just thought it was too busy combined with the chief barry wavy that you proposed using with it in your first post. Here is another suggestion for a per-fir-tree partition, but I quite like your suggestion with the engrailed chevron.


<div class=“bbcode_center” >
http://a.imageshack.us/img101/8158/smithtravishis3b.png
</div>

 
 
Claus K Berntsen
 
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Claus K Berntsen
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29 July 2010 12:52
 

A quick and dirty sketch, using Sable and Argent, which I think brings out the contrast much better. Also, being Scandinavian I don’t really acknowledge Bleu Celeste as a real tincture by itself… It might be a too light Azure… wink


<div class=“bbcode_center” >
[ATTACH]751[/ATTACH]


<div class=“bbcode_left” >
EDIT:

I see now that Kenneth beat me to it, although I can’t really say I’m all that fond of the Bleu Celeste…
</div>

</div>

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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29 July 2010 14:01
 

If I might recommend for your 2nd finalist slot…
<div class=“bbcode_center” >
http://a.imageshack.us/img268/1244/smithtravishis4b.png
</div>


The crest could of course be a demi-griffin as well, but I recommend moving the portcullis up there for the semi-finals.

Edited to add: On second thought, I recommend this version be declared the winner outright. smile

 
 
tsmith
 
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tsmith
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29 July 2010 14:19
 

Claus,

Thanks for posting the sable and argent version!  It really does look quite striking and utilizes the tinctures from Thomas More’s arms by reversing them.  I like it very much.  It might be good to have a semi-finalist that utilizes different tinctures.  Would you be so kind as to post another quick sketch replacing the portcullis with a third snowflake?

 

Kenneth,

 

I just might take your recommendation for the 2nd finalist slot.  Any thoughts about Claus’s version in sable and argent, with the portcullis swapped out for another snowflake as you recommed for the bleu celeste and Or version?

 

I do like the demi-gryphon holding the portcullis or a cross fleury with these designs.

 

On the per fess fir tree design, what if the bleu celeste snowflake was changed out for a bleu celeste (or gules) greek cross fleury?  Thoughts?

 

Thanks all! I have really appreciated the extended exchange here and all of the help offered.

 

Travis

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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29 July 2010 15:09
 

tsmith;78015 wrote:

I just might take your recommendation for the 2nd finalist slot.  Any thoughts about Claus’s version in sable and argent, with the portcullis swamped out for another snowflake as you recommed for the bleu celeste and Or version?

I like it and I agree that it is very striking. I don’t know that I like it better than the other version, though.


<div class=“bbcode_center” >
http://a.imageshack.us/img837/6835/smithtravishis4c.png
</div>

Quote:

I do like the demi-gryphon holding the portcullis or a cross fleury with these designs.

An excellent choice - either one.


Quote:

On the per fess fir tree design, what if the bleu celeste snowflake was changed out for a bleu celeste (or gules) greek cross fleury?  Thoughts?

My immediate thought is to wonder whether you’re related to the Minnesota Selvesters. wink

 
 
tsmith
 
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tsmith
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29 July 2010 15:27
 

Kenneth Mansfield;78017 wrote:

My immediate thought is to wonder whether you’re related to the Minnesota Selvesters. wink


The thought crossed my mind that perhaps the greek cross fleury with the per fess fir trees might be too similar to Fr. Selvester’s arms.  His arms were obviously the inspiration of this design but maybe the design isn’t differenced enough from the inspiration to be unique.

 

Travis

 
tsmith
 
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tsmith
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29 July 2010 15:30
 

What color demi-gryphon would work best for the crest with the sable and argent snowflake/chevron arrangement?

Travis