Orange and Tenné

 
Dohrman Byers
 
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Dohrman Byers
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17 August 2010 18:10
 

For some reason, there has been more discussion of my little aside about liturgical colors. It was just a thought, not an argument. More interesting to me is the way medieval artists represented the rainbow: with red and yellow but no orange. It suggests something of how colors were perceived and distinguished.

 
Jonathan Dominguez
 
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Jonathan Dominguez
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25 September 2010 18:57
 

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I did get as far as Denny’s posts.

It occurs to me that if you’re allowing 2 of the secondary colors to play (green and purple), then it seems to follow that orange should be allowed to play as well. It’s really just that simple.

 

Orange, like green, can be mixed so that you minimize any confusion (save at extreme distance.)

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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25 September 2010 20:04
 

No 24;79316 wrote:

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I did get as far as Denny’s posts.

It occurs to me that if you’re allowing 2 of the secondary colors to play (green and purple), then it seems to follow that orange should be allowed to play as well. It’s really just that simple.

 

Orange, like green, can be mixed so that you minimize any confusion (save at extreme distance.)


Please read the entire thread, and you will find that the concept of primary and secondary colors long postdates the establishment of the classical heraldic palette.

 
Jonathan Dominguez
 
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Jonathan Dominguez
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25 September 2010 21:27
 

Joseph McMillan;79320 wrote:

the concept of primary and secondary colors long postdates the establishment of the classical heraldic palette.


I really don’t need to read the whole thing; to sum up, the primary colors along with white and black have long been the colors of classical heraldry. The inclusion of green and purple (two of the secondary colors along with orange) were added later, but are still considered classical. I get that. I even agree to some point.

 

I also think that in our modern times, a contrasting orange can be reliably used with ease. It might be time for heraldry to move on a little bit, account for the modern age.

 

End of story; I’m not out to change anyone’s mind, I’m just saying I see no reason why orange shouldn’t be in the modern heraldic pallet. Obviously I don’t make the rules, but time (and use) does.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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26 September 2010 22:36
 

Variety is the spice of life. and variety of opinion is the spice of our forum.  If we all agreed on everything, without reasoned debate, it would be too boring to bother!

By the way , Johnathan, nice arms!  If you’ve already posted your reasons for this design, my apologies ... but I’m curious.

 
Nick B II
 
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Nick B II
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26 September 2010 23:08
 

No 24;79321 wrote:

I really don’t need to read the whole thing; to sum up, the primary colors along with white and black have long been the colors of classical heraldry. The inclusion of green and purple (two of the secondary colors along with orange) were added later, but are still considered classical. I get that. I even agree to some point.

They are considered classical? By whom?

Purpure, especially, is just not a standard color in several heraldic traditions. In some countries purist probably isn’t going to freak out at a purpure shield, but if you try that in Finland they won’t even register your arms.

 

When speaking generally I would say the only truly standard heraldic colors are Azure, Gules, Sable, and (possibly) vert. Several others are accepted in some traditions, but are not standard because they are not accepted everywhere.

 

And you really should read the whole thing if you want to comment on it. Orange is considered a secondary color by artists today, but it wasn’t even considered a color in most of Europe until well after the advent of heraldry.

 

Nick

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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29 September 2010 07:11
 

arriano;78106 wrote:

Does anyone know why orange isn’t a regular heraldic color?


May I suggest a few simple reasons for orange¹ and tenné² not being standard heraldic colours? During the early development of heraldry, modern day orange as a colour was so exotic that it never occurred to the early heralds to include it in their palate.The colour tenné was likely considered to be a variety of red during the Medieval period. The red dyes of the time being being comprised of unstable vegetable matter which was difficult if not impossible to set, thus having a very strong tendency to fade with every rain or washing.

 

¹ Orange is a relatively new colour in the European spectrum. In East Asia burnt orange or more specifically ferrous oxide decorations were common upon both Chinese and Japanese porcelains as well as silk and embroidered garments. In western Europe orange, as a colour of dye, did not commonly appear in garments and carpets until the 1840’s.

 

² Tenné is a much older colour which appears most often in heraldry as a livery colour, that is in the uniforms of retainers. This rust coloured natural dye is relatively simple and inexpensive to produce which probably accounts for its use in so many Scottish kilt patterns.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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29 September 2010 08:26
 

Following up on David’s post—I checked the OED on this point the other night.  The earliest use given for "orange" as a color in English is circa 1600.  There is a slightly earlier use (1590) for "orange-tawny", exactly in the context David points out, as a description of the color of a cloth.

Something else that occurred to me a couple of weeks ago thinking about this thread—why do we call red foxes "red"?  Why do we refer to people with tawny-orangish hair as "redheads"?

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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29 September 2010 12:28
 

Joseph McMillan;79439 wrote:

Something else that occurred to me a couple of weeks ago thinking about this thread—why do we call red foxes "red"?  Why do we refer to people with tawny-orangish hair as "redheads"?


Hmmm… You may be onto something. Don’t forget the red hen.

 

http://static.mypetchicken.com/images/chickenPix/Large/FRE_RhIslRdHn_1_L.jpg

 
J. Stolarz
 
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J. Stolarz
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01 October 2010 19:57
 

Joseph McMillan;79439 wrote:

Something else that occurred to me a couple of weeks ago thinking about this thread—why do we call red foxes "red"?  Why do we refer to people with tawny-orangish hair as "redheads"?


You make a good point though, and there are several other instance of this in the animal kingdom.  Another thing I thought of is that red-green color blindness is the most common form of color blindness, and it mostly only affects men, and I remember reading that around 10 million American men are red-green color blind.  Heraldry is a pretty male dominated tradition, and always has been so another thing to consider is that there were plenty of people (Like myself) that sometimes struggle with the color orange, an just considered it to be red, or more on the gold side even.

 

Granted my theory is much more far fetched and wasn’t the dominant reason why orange hasn’t been a common color in heraldry.  Joseph has already come up with the most likely reasons in my opinion, but I thought mine was something to consider.  Whenever I do come across heraldry with orange as a tincture, I tend to think it’s red or a dirty colored gold, until I read the blazon.