English blazon for German knotenkreuz

 
Robert Witting
 
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Robert Witting
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18 April 2011 18:09
 

Any idea how the German knotenkreuz is blazoned in English?

German wikipedia article: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knotenkreuz

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Knoopkruis.svg/200px-Knoopkruis.svg.png

Source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knoopkruis.svg

 

Wiki image page gives the description: An interlaced heraldic cross.

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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19 April 2011 04:39
 

I do not believe this charge appears in any English heraldry exactly as it is presented, but a knotted cross would seem an appropriate term for the charge. Or there is the option of using the German word itself.

Then again, one could simply call it a fret.

 
Robert Witting
 
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Robert Witting
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19 April 2011 06:19
 

This is part of why I find this charge so interesting, it is basically a rotated fret.

Is there any one to dispute the statement that it does not appear in English (or anglophone) heraldry?

 
liongam
 
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liongam
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25 April 2011 03:20
 

Dear Robert,

Although I cannot recall seeing such a cross in British heraldry, I suppose that one could possibly blazon it as a ‘cross fretted’?  Although, this is , perhaps, not the best solution it does describe the example you show, i.e. ‘Sable a cross fretted argent’.

 

John

 
steven harris
 
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25 April 2011 14:35
 

My first impression is a fret turned on its side - maybe a "fret bendwise" - but that is a very weak suggestion.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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25 April 2011 14:53
 

"a cross fretted" in English is usually "a cross voided and fretted" which is quite different—while the wording isn’t identical it looks to me close enough to be confusing or misleading.

You might say something like "a square billet voided and a pallet and bar all fretted" but that seems a bit clumsy.

 

Robert noted that it is basically a fret rotated; so how about "a fret crosswise"?

 
liongam
 
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liongam
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26 April 2011 08:17
 

Another blazon could be as follows: ‘Sable a square fret in cross argent’.  The qualification ‘square’ would need to be made, as all frets are generally made up of a mascle interlaced with a bendlet and bendlet sinister.

John

 
Robert Witting
 
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Robert Witting
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26 April 2011 08:41
 

Thank you for all the replies. I’m actually struggling to find a Swedish blazon for this symbol for a friend of mine that is in the process of designing his arms. Your comments could prove helpful. Swedish and English are after all quite similar languages. :D Thank you.

 
steven harris
 
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26 April 2011 12:55
 

Well, a direct translation of "das Knotenkreuz" would be "knotted cross".

The wikipedia page that you linked also gave an example of a "Knotenschragenkreuze" (a "slanted knotted cross") from the civic arms of

Tiukka in Finland (called Tjöck in Swedish).

 

This "slanted knotted cross" looks very much like a fret to me.

 
Daniel C. Boyer
 
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Daniel C. Boyer
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06 May 2011 12:14
 

Michael F. McCartney;82174 wrote:

"a cross fretted" in English is usually "a cross voided and fretted" which is quite different—while the wording isn’t identical it looks to me close enough to be confusing or misleading.

You might say something like "a square billet voided and a pallet and bar all fretted" but that seems a bit clumsy.

 

Robert noted that it is basically a fret rotated; so how about "a fret crosswise"?


Why have people gotten into "a square billet" now?  How is this different from a delf?

 
Daniel C. Boyer
 
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Daniel C. Boyer
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06 May 2011 12:15
 

steven harris;82172 wrote:

My first impression is a fret turned on its side - maybe a "fret bendwise" - but that is a very weak suggestion.


I don’t think it’s weak; "a fret bendwise," blazoned as "throughout" if necessary, would certainly give the right idea

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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06 May 2011 15:26
 

DB asks, "Why have people gotten into "a square billet" now? How is this different from a delf?"

Dunno—I’ll have to delve into that…

(more seriously, I’m often reading during lunch break at work and have to rely on somewhat rusty memory of uncommon terms.)

 
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