blazon assistance

 
dhjohnson
 
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dhjohnson
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30 May 2011 19:32
 

I’ve assisted a Boy Scout troop in designing a coat of arms.  I’ve done a little bit of work to determine what the blazon would be, but am interested in some more experienced assistance.  Do members here help with that sort of thing?

Thanks,

 

David

 
Brad Smith
 
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Brad Smith
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30 May 2011 20:52
 

Hi David!

Welcome to the site.

 

I’ve been involved in scouting a bit in the past…I wonder if you could clarify what sort of design you are assisting them with…is it for a troop or a council, or an event?  Or something else entirely?

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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30 May 2011 21:37
 

Generally the AHS assists members with design work in the members area.  Here we tend to limit to more specific questions.  Membership is really inexpensive and multiple people have come out with some really impressive arms through member asistance.  If you throw a blazon out, I’m sure we can assist with the correct blazon.  If you want us to make recommendations to the design (or detailed work), I recommend you join - this group is great!

For the greatest participation in design assistance, for $20/year, you can’t lose!

 

http://www.americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Main.Join

 
dhjohnson
 
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dhjohnson
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30 May 2011 21:58
 

Hello, Brad.  Thank you.

It’s a coat of arms for a troop, and most of the design work has already been done.  The scouts in the troop voted on the design, which may be a somewhat unique situation in heraldry—design by committee.


Brad Smith;83719 wrote:

Hi David!

Welcome to the site.

 

I’ve been involved in scouting a bit in the past…I wonder if you could clarify what sort of design you are assisting them with…is it for a troop or a council, or an event?  Or something else entirely?

 

 
dhjohnson
 
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dhjohnson
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30 May 2011 22:00
 

Thanks, Kathy.  I’ll check into membership tomorrow.


Kathy McClurg;83720 wrote:

Generally the AHS assists members with design work in the members area.  Here we tend to limit to more specific questions.  Membership is really inexpensive and multiple people have come out with some really impressive arms through member asistance.  If you throw a blazon out, I’m sure we can assist with the correct blazon.  If you want us to make recommendations to the design (or detailed work), I recommend you join - this group is great!

For the greatest participation in design assistance, for $20/year, you can’t lose!

 

http://www.americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Main.Join

 

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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31 May 2011 00:48
 

This policy statement from the Boy Scouts insignia guide would probably give me pause:


Quote:

Neither the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, the policy, nor the program applications may be added to or changed in any way unless approved by the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America through its Program Group Committee.


Were I responsible for a troop, I’d probably inquire up the chain for guidance on assumption of arms by said troop. Something like this would be worth it to me to get central approval for, since if approved would lend that much more meaningful importance to the arms.  Of course, I probably take this whole heraldry thing way too seriously, lol. :marine:

 
Brad Smith
 
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31 May 2011 00:59
 

As Mr. Johnson noted, he is designing a Coat of Arms for a troop, which I assume would fall under the BSA regulation for local insignia:

Special local badges and Insignia

 

Clause 11. Local councils are authorized to adopt special badges and insignia as awards for particular purposes in harmony with national policies and to permit their use upon the official uniform in accordance with the Rules and Regulations of the Corporation, but such awards must be approved as to purpose and design by the Corporation in advance.

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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31 May 2011 01:21
 

Thanks Mr. Smith, that confirms my feeling that BSA really only has outlined the use of badges and insignia for one scope of purpose: awards.

I haven’t found anything so far which would fall under the purpose of troop designation outside of basic numeric patches.

 

Pretty much everything that adorns the uniform seems some form of merit or award which reflects accomplishment of the bearer.

 

This is not to say that a troop assumed armorial achievement would ever adorn any regulated item like a uniform or banner, but it does reinforce the idea to me that it would be something that the central authorities would probably want to advise on. smile

 
dhjohnson
 
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dhjohnson
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31 May 2011 07:56
 

Jeffrey Boyd Garrison;83733 wrote:

Thanks Mr. Smith, that confirms my feeling that BSA really only has outlined the use of badges and insignia for one scope of purpose: awards.

I haven’t found anything so far which would fall under the purpose of troop designation outside of basic numeric patches.

 

Pretty much everything that adorns the uniform seems some form of merit or award which reflects accomplishment of the bearer.

 

This is not to say that a troop assumed armorial achievement would ever adorn any regulated item like a uniform or banner, but it does reinforce the idea to me that it would be something that the central authorities would probably want to advise on. smile


Mr. Garrison,

 

Thanks for the reply.  I can assure you that the policy statement you found doesn’t apply to the adoption of a logo or insignia of any kind by a unit (troop).  Unless the logo or insignia were to contain symbols, themes, references to, etc. something inconsistent with Scouting, "authorities" at any level not only couldn’t care less.  Additionally, at those "bureaucratic" levels, there isn’t a mechanism for that sort of thing anyway.

 

The coat of arms would be used on a troop neckerchief, and possibly on a troop flag of some sort, but neither of these are regulated items.

 
Brad Smith
 
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Brad Smith
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31 May 2011 09:29
 

Having been part of this design process in local Boy Scout troops (from design to approval), I can tell you that the design of troop neckerchiefs and banners was regulated by BSA in the past.  It may not be now.  The approval process was really rather easy; a matter of submitting the design to the local district with the proper form.  Internally designed local troop insignia (such as neckerchiefs and banners) is expected.

I look forward to assisting on the project :D

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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31 May 2011 12:21
 

am i correct in understanding, then, that blazon assistance is not allowed under our rules on design? i didn’t think that was the case. i knew the actual design of a piece was prohibited, but i didn’t think that working with someone on the proper/correct blazon of an existing design that they already have made up was a no-no. my understanding must be off then. clarification would be appreciated. thanks.

 
dhjohnson
 
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dhjohnson
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31 May 2011 13:09
 

Donnchadh;83752 wrote:

am i correct in understanding, then, that blazon assistance is not allowed under our rules on design? i didn’t think that was the case. i knew the actual design of a piece was prohibited, but i didn’t think that working with someone on the proper/correct blazon of an existing design that they already have made up was a no-no. my understanding must be off then. clarification would be appreciated. thanks.


I received a private message from another member that indicated that assistance with blazon was probably okay for non-members.

 

That said, I *just* paid for a membership.

 

I’m having a tough time figuring out how to upload an image.  What’s the preferred way of doing that?

 
Brad Smith
 
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Brad Smith
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31 May 2011 13:53
 

dhjohnson;83757 wrote:

I received a private message from another member that indicated that assistance with blazon was probably okay for non-members.

That said, I *just* paid for a membership.

 

I’m having a tough time figuring out how to upload an image.  What’s the preferred way of doing that?


Go to your User CP by clicking on your name on the right side of the blue bar towards the top of any forum page.  On the left side under the heading of "Networking" you should see "Pictures and Albums".  Click there, then create an album and upload your file.  When you post the image on the forums, use the BB code for the image you’d like to display.  This SHOULD work…:D

 
dhjohnson
 
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dhjohnson
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31 May 2011 14:02
 

Okay, here’s the coat of arms:

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=70&pictureid=1060

 

And this is what I have so far:

 

Shield:

Per chevron inverted embattled with twelve battlements Argent and Gules in chief an eagle’s head erased facing sinister proper in base a hurt fimbriated argent charged with three mullets point to center of the last.

 

Crest:

From a wreath Argent and Gules a Tudor rose barbed and seeded Vert.

 

Motto:

"1914".

 

Symbolism:

The colors, especially the color red, represent the traditional colors of Scouting, and are emblematic of the traditional methods and long history of Troop 5.  The inverted chevron represents the Roman numeral “V”, and is embattled to call to mind the architecture of St. John’s Cathedral in downtown Knoxville, where the troop meets.  The twelve merlons represent the twelve points of the Scout Law.  The eagle, as a symbol of St. John, faces it’s left to distinguish it from a secular eagle.  The charge at the base represents the State of Tennessee, where the troop is located and conducts most of its activities, and the three stars should also invoke the three parts of the Scout Oath.  The Tudor rose, with the colors red and white and its five petals and five leaves, is a fitting symbol for Troop 5 and alludes to Scouting’s English roots.  The troop was first chartered in 1914.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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31 May 2011 14:16
 

So it’s my understanding that, right or wrong, good or bad, the boys have already voted on this and you need help with the blazon, not a critique of the arms themselves. Correct?

If that’s the case, I’d say you’ve done a pretty good job, though if the base is really meant to copy exactly the Tennessee flag you might add "as in the flag of the state of Tennessee" to the blazon. I realize it’s a lot of extra wording, but far easier than the description of the stars on the flag itself:
Flags of the World wrote:

Inside the circular blue field shall be three five-pointed stars of white distributed at equal intervals around a point in the center of the blue field and shall be of such size and arrangement that one point of each star shall approach as closely as practicable without actually touching one point of each of the other two around the center point of the field; and the two outer points of each star shall approach as nearly as practicable without actually touching the periphery of the blue field. The arrangement of the three stars shall be such that the centers of no two stars shall be in a line parallel to either the side or end of the flag, but intermediate between same; and the highest star shall be the one nearest the upper confined corner of the flag.


I don’t know if I’d call "1914" a motto. Seems like they’d be better off putting "Be Prepared" on a scroll under the arms and "1914" on a scroll over it.

 

And your rose as drawn is seeded Or. I think you’re safe just saying a Tudor Rose.

 
 
dhjohnson
 
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dhjohnson
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31 May 2011 14:30
 

Kenneth Mansfield;83761 wrote:

So it’s my understanding that, right or wrong, good or bad, the boys have already voted on this and you need help with the blazon, not a critique of the arms themselves. Correct?.


That’s correct, although I wouldn’t mind a critique.


Kenneth Mansfield;83761 wrote:

If that’s the case, I’d say you’ve done a pretty good job, though if the base is really meant to copy exactly the Tennessee flag you might add "as in the flag of the state of Tennessee" to the blazon. I realize it’s a lot of extra wording, but far easier than the description of the stars on the flag itself:


Sounds good to me.


Kenneth Mansfield;83761 wrote:

I don’t know if I’d call "1914" a motto. Seems like they’d be better off putting "Be Prepared" on a scroll under the arms and "1914" on a scroll over it.


Yeah, it’s certainly not a traditional motto.


Kenneth Mansfield;83761 wrote:

And your rose as drawn is seeded Or. I think you’re safe just saying a Tudor Rose.


That works too.  Thanks very much.