Changing the color scheme of my arms and why

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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13 September 2011 16:59
 

i’m changing the color scheme of my arms. not the design, that is set. but, i’ll be changing the color scheme from Azure and Argent to Sable and Or.

now, my father’s line (mag Eochadha, M[a]cGeough, M[a]cGoff), which comes from Armagh, does not have a "sept arms" to use as a basis for their design as nearly 300 Irish Names do. however, there is a family of the name who was long established in Armagh (and Monaghan) who ‘conformed’ in the 17th century and were then able to take advantage of many of the opportunities that conformists were able to take advantage of at that time including becoming armigers; though there is some historical notes that they still held deep connections to their Catholic extended familial relations and neighbors going so far as to protect ‘Irish Papists’ from the actions of the Orange Order at that time through one of their members who was a member of the aristocratic establishment.

 

now, when i designed my family’s arms i was unaware of this families coat of arms. it was pointed out to me later when my family’s arms were going through the "fridge" test. i remember thinking that was rather cool, but we were going in a different direction (Azure and Argent) at that time.

 

long story short, i know too late, i’ve helped design a good number of Irish-related arms and have promoted the idea of using the well-known arms as a basis. it bugged me that we did not do that with our own arms. for us, the charges have specific meanings and so they will not change, but in an effort to giving a nod to the ‘leading’ family of the name (they are now extinct in the male line due to the death [1986] with no male heirs of Water Albert Nevill McGeough-Bond who gave over the family’s estate, paintings, etc to the National Trust in 1979) we will simply change the colors scheme to mirror theirs—Sable and Or. there is no clear direct-descent relation to them, nor should there be, and i do not imply that by this. rather, all we will be doing is mirroring our arms with those of the leading family of that name from the same place of origin/habitat as one often finds in Irish arms including with UKA and CHI grants going back some time now. that is also why we will keep our charges the same (plus they have specific meaning for us) and only use the color scheme.

 

so, i will begin having the several artists i have commissioned to do several pieces for me to use the new color scheme and i just thought i’d share with my long-time friends on AHS why the color change since you were there with me back 5 or 6 years ago when we began this journey.

 

our corrected blazon will now be:

Arms: Quarterly: Sable and Or; 1st, a horse head erased crowned with an ancient Irish crown; 2nd a tower; 3rd, a cross bottony; 4th, a dexter hand couped apaume, all counter-changed.

War Cry: Above the achievement, Saoirse!

(Crests and personal mottoes beneath the shield are left up to each member of the family)

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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13 September 2011 17:10
 

so, to head this off before it is brought up, i’m not changing them for personal preference in color, which as with all "tastes" can change over time. if i did that they would be Gules and Argent. i am only doing this for the reasons i posted above.

 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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13 September 2011 23:21
 

Donnchadh;87681 wrote:

so, to head this off before it is brought up, i’m not changing them for personal preference in color, which as with all "tastes" can change over time. if i did that they would be Gules and Argent. i am only doing this for the reasons i posted above.


Hi Denny ...

 

Changing the liveries is your choice… though, I was always (and shall ever be) fond of your Argent and Azure!  Is there any chance of convincing you otherwise?  Like sending the boyos over for a little "consultation?"  (^__^)

 

Good hearing from you!

—Guy

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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14 September 2011 00:55
 

lol.

hi Guy. it seems a lock. unless something comes up i’m not seeing right now it looks like a done deal. azure and argent are great. the arms were beautiful as is. but, they are missing that one irish characteristic and yet we strove to make them very irish…at least as irish as we can given we’re american-irish. wink

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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14 September 2011 21:22
 

Apologies if I’ve missed it (wouldn’t be the first time!)—but what were the McGeough-Bond arms you mentioned?  or if quarterly, at least the McGeough quarter(s)?

Also—though I don’t have the resources readily at hand to look for it now—I wonder if the re-colored first quarter (gold horse’s head erased on black) might resemble any existing arms not associated with the McGeough / McGoff / etc. name?  (Of course the Irish coronet on the horse’s head would likely serve as sufficient difference, but curious anyway.)

 

And FWIW (maybe not much!) I would echo Guy’s sentiment—to borrow shamelessly from My Fair Lady—"we’ve grown accustomed to your arms…"

 
Benjamin Thornton
 
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Benjamin Thornton
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14 September 2011 22:38
 

I don’t think the change is necessary to establish your Irish credentials, but do as you will.  Personally, I think similar charges (or a similar design) would more obviously suggest a link to the older arms, but that is for you and your family to decide.

But I’ll admit your arms will look striking in sable and or.  Still, put me down as one vote against.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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15 September 2011 11:53
 

the MacGeough of Drumshill and The Argory House (formerly Derrycaw) arms are:

Per bend Sable and Or, three leopard faces counterchanged.

later a great-grandson, iirc, of the original armiger petitioned for a royal warrant to add the surname of his maternal grandmother who was an heiress thereby giving them the name MacGeough-Bond (the heiress was Bond of Bondsville, Armagh). at that point the arms quartered Bond of Bondsville (Or, on a chevron Gules, three annulets Argent) with MacGeough of Drumshill and The Argory House (formerly Derrycaw) however the Bond arms took precedence over MacGeough. oddly, to my thinking anyway, they added the Bond name as the last name though it appears no real property, other than surname and arms, were willed, given, bequeathed, granted, etc to the family and that only by royal warrant and again petitioned for only out of affection for his grandmother and not as a mandate from a will in order to inherit property as one often finds. it would’ve been best, imo, to have made them Bond-MacGeough, but what do i know?

 

anyway the arms have leopard faces and are a per bend set up and there is no other connection between our family’s arms and those other than the color scheme, which again is very common in both old grants from UKA and from CHI; it is also seen in Scottish heraldry (ref. Joe’s arms, which do much the same thing). so for us we will do this as well by using the same colors, but we will keep our own charges as those have specific meaning to us; besides we can not, do not, claim direct descent from the Drumshill line, but we are from the same area (Drumshill line=Moy, Co. Armagh and us=Armagh, Co. Armagh). if we were directly related somehow i woulda designed them to incorporate the colors and the leopard face somehow with a difference of course. but, we’re not and we don’t want to go that far…only follow this practice.

 

as a reminder, our arms are quarterly, not quartered, and the arms are based on the quarterly style/model found in some Highland Scottish arms and some Irish arms, so there is no worry about our first quarter matching someone else’s arms, which i’ve never seen anyway (a horse head erased crowned with an ancient crown). also we will use a quarterly of Sable and Or, not Or and Sable, like we use Azure and Argent, not Argent and Azure.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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15 September 2011 11:59
 

thanks for the kind words about our arms though Guy, Michael and Benjamin.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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15 September 2011 12:10
 

here’s an image of the arms with the Bond arms and crest in it, but without their motto, i did some time ago:

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=60&pictureid=1338

 

here’s an image of the arms in b&w that i pulled from a British blog…forget it’s name but can be seen here: http://lordbelmontinnorthernireland.blogspot.com/2010/08/macgeough-bond-estates.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+LordBelmontInNorthernIreland+(Lord+Belmont+In+Northern+Ireland)

anyway i do not know the artist (if anyone does that’d be great):

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=60&pictureid=1337

 

and yes, i did look into it, they did get their initial grant (MacGeough of Drumshill) with the motto that should be immediately recognized by fans of Scottish heraldry and Orders.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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16 September 2011 00:44
 

Denny wrote in part (referring to an old rendition) "anyway i do not know the artist (if anyone does that’d be great)"

I can’t provide a name, but the artist’s initials "TC" or "CT"—the two letters superimposed—appear between the shield and the lower end of the dexter mantling.  Perhaps others here can tie that to a well-known (and quite competent!) heraldic artist, since IIRC I’ve noticed the same initials on any number of heraldic illustrations—though I’m ashamed to say I never inquired as to who the artist might have been.

 

Merely as an observation—with two metals and five colors to work with (leaving out the furs, which don’t seem relevant here), my math tells me there are only 10 possible combinations (or 20 if you count e.g. Or on Sable, and Sable on Or, separately).

 

Either way, the nod to any particular historic arms based merely on similar color scheme will be only in the eye of the particularly well-informed beholder—the casual observer is more likely ti think, "ah - musta had a Campbell granny."

 

If black & gold (gold & black?) is sufficient to be meaningful to you & yours, that is of course your choice to make; and we know you will do a bang-up job of emblazoning them.  Many of us will still miss the by-now-familiar blue & white.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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28 September 2011 14:55
 

from Martin Goldstraw in the now locked thread where i asked for my armorial to be removed until such time as i have my new arms….
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donnchadh

I’m changing the color and metal of my arms.


Such a concept is alien to me (as a Brit) .... To paraphrase a well known UK Dog’s Trust motto: Armorial bearings are for eternity not just Christmas!

 

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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28 September 2011 15:01
 

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Goldstraw

Such a concept is alien to me (as a Brit) .... To paraphrase a well known UK Dog’s Trust motto: Armorial bearings are for eternity not just Christmas!

Quote:

No market over there for mood signet rings that change tinctures depending on how you’re feeling from day to day?

nice, Joe. nice. not remotely close to the actual reasons, but hoorah for your piling on. never occurred to you respond like that in the actual thread dealing with the changes, did it, only after the bro-hah-hah for today? yes, nice indeed.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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28 September 2011 15:46
 

posting this to bump it up so that reasonable people who may have missed it can now read it and don’t fall for the bologna others may have, or may not have, said or implied….

we’re changing the color/metal of our arms to fall in line with the Irish tradition of basing one’s own arms in some way on those of an established coat of arms. NOT BECAUSE THE MOOD SUITS ME TO CHANGE THEM—-NOT BECAUSE I LIKE THEM AT CHRISTMAS, OR ANY OTHER TIME OF THE YEAR, EXCEPT NOW—NOT BECAUSE I LACK THE KNOWLEDGE OF HOW A COAT OF ARMS IS SUPPOSED TO WORK ETC. if it were because of how the mood suited me they’d be red (sanguine) and white.

 

again
<hr class=“bbcode_rule” >
we are not changing the arms themselves only the metal and color involved to honor the above mentioned irish tradition
<hr class=“bbcode_rule” >
with that said…peace out.

 

(caps are for added emphasis and not yelling)