Survey: Family Arms vs. One-Armiger-One-Arms

 
J. Stolarz
 
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J. Stolarz
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19 December 2011 13:52
 

Fred White;90770 wrote:

Clearly, there are gaps in my learning. In what countries is there a tradition of all descendants inheriting arms without regard to sex or surname?


That’s what I was wondering as well.  Regardless of the fact, if there are instances of it, it isn’t the norm and shouldn’t be seen as such.  Part of the problem, and the nice thing about the United States…is we’re the ultimate melting pot.  I like the way that AHS explains inheritance, and I agree that is how it should work here in the United States.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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19 December 2011 14:22
 

The only example I can think of approaching what Kathy seems to be describing is (or was) Portugal. A man (sorry Kathy, but the system seems to have limited to males) could use the arms of either of his grandfather or either of his grandmothers’ fathers—a choice of four.

As I understand it from trying to decipher a 19th century Portuguese legal text, there were limits on how many women the arms could pass through (three, I think), and how many male-female breaks were allowed. I may have the specifics wrong, but it was something like this:

 

I could use the arms of my father, my grandfather Cooper, my great-grandfather Johnson, or my great-grandfather Waldrup. If I chose the last of these, the arms would come to me via two successive females (my mother and her mother). If my daughter were someday to have a son, he could also use the Waldrup arms, but he could then pass them to his descendants only in the direct male line—the "three-females" limit would have been reached.

 

Arms inherited from an ancestor other than the direct male line were differenced with a complex system of cadeny marks that someone may remember but I do not—things like half-cantons and such, and even letters on the half-cantons.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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19 December 2011 14:48
 

OK - So even though they come from differing traditions, if we use the surname thingy in the US, it’s all good - unless the mom is a hard core feminist insisting that all heirs inherit…

For Fred n Joe - Don’t ACH registrations include all heirs - male and female as having the right to use the arms?

 

Then there’s Canada…  grin ... Take a walk through there sometimes!

 

Sorry, still at work trying to distract myself for a short break…

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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19 December 2011 15:35
 

Kathy McClurg;90783 wrote:

For Fred n Joe - Don’t ACH registrations include all heirs - male and female as having the right to use the arms?


I have no idea; I have no connection to the ACH.

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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19 December 2011 16:48
 

Kathy McClurg;90783 wrote:

For Fred n Joe - Don’t ACH registrations include all heirs - male and female as having the right to use the arms?


Yes. When I registered these arms you see above with ACH for my father, both me and my sister were listed in the documentation as being heirs to the arms. Now, since ACH has no legal standing, I don’t know if it makes any difference. If my father specifically listed in his will that the arms were to go to my sister and not me, what legal right I’d have to them I don’t know. Either way, I’ll continue to be nice to my dad just in case.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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20 December 2011 07:13
 

Sorry Joe, thought you might know a bit of them and their history.  I’ve been looking at their site and am not finding what, if any, thoughts they have on heirs… of course, I miss things.  Guess it’s time to contact David Wooten directly wink

Dad’s arms were rgistered with them as well, and all his heirs (male and female) are listed on the registrationwith individual numbered registration.  So, hmm… well, either way

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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20 December 2011 12:45
 

If the ACH designates all issue of the armiger as having the right to inherit his arms, it surprises me, because it seems so contrary to international norms, but this is a free country, after all.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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20 December 2011 13:27
 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Canada also allow for this as Kathy pointed out? What of South Africa (I can’t remember for sure, but I think I read threy also allow for this)?

I know for a fact, I’ll have to look up an old URL to see if I can share it with you all so you can verify it, but the CHoI did grants, or at least did grant, arms to at least one woman (I think the name was Cullen or Mullen…will have to find out) and her male and female children’s arms were also illustrated on the LP.

 

So, while it may not be the "norm" I’m thinking Kathy may be right in that there is some other international cases for this kind of inheritance. I may be wrong though.

 
Luis Cid
 
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Luis Cid
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20 December 2011 13:58
 

My understanding is that that the ACH allows for a woman to inherit arms from her father but not the ability to transmit them to her children (unless she is an heraldic heiress).  The children of a woman who assumed and registered arms in her own name with the ACH could transmit those arms to her children if they take her surname.

Other than Canada and Portugal I do not know of any national heraldic tradition that allows for arms to be passed to women as is customary in Portugal or now done in Canada

 
Luis Cid
 
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Luis Cid
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20 December 2011 14:26
 

arriano;90798 wrote:

Yes. When I registered these arms you see above with ACH for my father, both me and my sister were listed in the documentation as being heirs to the arms. Now, since ACH has no legal standing, I don’t know if it makes any difference. If my father specifically listed in his will that the arms were to go to my sister and not me, what legal right I’d have to them I don’t know. Either way, I’ll continue to be nice to my dad just in case.


Hi Arriano,

 

When your father registered his arms with the ACH you immediately acquired the same rights to your father’s arms as he has.  You do not inherit the arms at his death, nor do you need to difference them during his life.  Your father’s undifferenced arms are also yours now through the customary heraldic inheritance, which in the USA (and every place else except Scotland) means you gained your right to the arms coincidental with the assumption and publication of the arms by your father.

 

So don’t worry Arriano, enjoy your arms - but still be nice to your dad!

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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20 December 2011 15:13
 

Luis Cid;90853 wrote:

Hi Arriano,

When your father registered his arms with the ACH you immediately acquired the same rights to your father’s arms as he has.  You do not inherit the arms at his death, nor do you need to difference them during his life.  Your father’s undifferenced arms are also yours now through the customary heraldic inheritance, which in the USA (and every place else except Scotland) means you gained your right to the arms coincidental with the assumption and publication of the arms by your father.

 

So don’t worry Arriano, enjoy your arms - but still be nice to your dad!


This being specified in the registry of the ACH that all children have equal and immediate claim?  Seems like Arian’s dad’s signature should be on that document to lend it some authority. This might be US custom as stated by AHS guidelines and apparent ACH practice, but the father’s wishes trump US custom for his own family IMO. Registry certificates which state some fact of inheritance are overstepping their bounds if there is not a client/armiger signature. The best they can do is say "yes we recognize your arms." To stretch it, they can say "we recognize the arms of you and your kids." The worst they can do is say, "we have decided your arms shall belong to all of your kids at this moment and without any apparent proof of your complicity in the matter." I believe the wrong impression is being propogated.

 
Luis Cid
 
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Luis Cid
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20 December 2011 17:06
 

Jeffrey Boyd Garrison;90855 wrote:

This being specified in the registry of the ACH that all children have equal and immediate claim?  Seems like Arian’s dad’s signature should be on that document to lend it some authority. This might be US custom as stated by AHS guidelines and apparent ACH practice, but the father’s wishes trump US custom for his own family IMO. Registry certificates which state some fact of inheritance are overstepping their bounds if there is not a client/armiger signature. The best they can do is say "yes we recognize your arms." To stretch it, they can say "we recognize the arms of you and your kids." The worst they can do is say, "we have decided your arms shall belong to all of your kids at this moment and without any apparent proof of your complicity in the matter." I believe the wrong impression is being propogated.


Dear Jeffrey, the ACH registration document states who the heraldic heirs are as specified by the armiger in the registration application.  In the case that there was no specific destination for the registered arms made by the applicant, then heraldic customs as followed in the USA would govern the destination of the arms (unless the arms had first been registered or granted in another country, in which case the destination would follow the heraldic customs of that nation).

 

In the case that the hypothetical father/new armiger were to years later decide that one of his legitimate offspring should be heraldically disinherited - he cannot.  A father in the above case could no more deprive a son of his son’s legitimate coat of arms as he could deprive him of his surname.

 

Heraldry is a traditional science and art which constitute a social good, it’s rules as dictated by national custom cannot be bent to fit the whims of an individual - that would not be true heraldry but rather a mockery.

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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20 December 2011 18:08
 

Dear Luis, A mockery? Whims? May I say, you seem rather overly adamant in your opinions. With due respect, let me state simply that I disagree with you almost entirely on these points.

Arian’s use of a label should be encouraged, honoring his father’s heraldic wishes (regardless of what the ACH has recorded)  for good or ill also.

 
Luis Cid
 
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Luis Cid
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20 December 2011 18:39
 

Jeffrey Boyd Garrison;90879 wrote:

Dear Luis, A mockery? Whims? May I say, you seem rather overly adamant in your opinions. With due respect, let me state simply that I disagree with you almost entirely on these points.

Arian’s use of a label should be encouraged, honoring his father’s heraldic wishes (regardless of what the ACH has recorded)  for good or ill also.


Dear Jeffrey, if you read my statements carefully, you would note that the ACH registration process gave Arian’s father total control over the destination of the arms.  This has nothing to do with honoring or not honoring a specific individuals wishes (in this case the armiger’s wishes were in fact honored), but rather: What is custom in the USA today, and what is the ACH pratice today?  Those questions where amply answered.

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
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20 December 2011 18:56
 

Luis Cid;90881 wrote:

Dear Jeffrey, if you read my statements carefully, you would note that the ACH registration process gave Arian’s father total control over the destination of the arms.  This has nothing to do with honoring or not honoring a specific individuals wishes (in this case the armiger’s wishes were in fact honored), but rather: What is custom in the USA today, and what is the ACH pratice today?  Those questions where amply answered.


Dear Luis, I read your statements very carefully, and your assumption otherwise reveals your biased lack of confidence in my ability to ascertain your meaning.  It’s not that I do not understand what you are saying, it’s that I believe your statements are erroneous.

 

It is not the ACH’s place to give control to a registrant on how his issue is meant to inherit. Whether they claim empowerment over safeguarding this apparent US custom or not is less important than your belief that they are empowered to do so. ACH’s role should be no more than to "observe" amerigerous heritance and it seems by your statements that you believe otherwise and that the justification for this is granted by your interpretation of US custom.

 

The only acceptable exception I might allow for this would be that the ACH be a gated social club which polices it’s own membership to observe it’s ordinances.  If that is the case, then seeking their membership would be a mistake for anyone who wanted to exercise his freedom as an American to pursue his own agenda (in which case, the use of "American" in the ACH name seems a misnomer).