Registering arms in Spain??????

 
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02 January 2012 17:55
 

Joseph McMillan;91361 wrote:

No, this is clearly not the case.  I’ve had several long conversations with the gentleman in question—Scott MacMillan, formerly on the staff of the OCHI—about the project.  His aim, as we have discussed here before, is to enable clansmen to rebut the assertion of the self-appointed Scottish-games heraldry police who go around informing various and sundry people that the arms they’re bearing at games within the United States are illegal, inappropriate, out of place, whatever, if they’re not matriculated in Lyon Register.  The underlying concept is, "my chief says it’s all right, so butt out," which implicitly requires a process for the chief to determine which arms are all right and which aren’t.


For those of us who have not been fortunate to enjoy Scottish games, who are these (obnoxious?) heraldry police?!  Are other chiefs this accommodating and helpful as well?

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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02 January 2012 20:45
 

I’m not sure about other clan chiefs but ours is very active and goes well out of his way to help with projects and things of that nature.

The heraldry police are generally the same ones we call kilt cops. They think they know it all when it comes to heraldry and how kilts are to be worn when usually they are the clueless ones.

 
Terry
 
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Terry
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03 January 2012 14:27
 

Joseph McMillan;91361 wrote:

No, this is clearly not the case.  I’ve had several long conversations with the gentleman in question—Scott MacMillan, formerly on the staff of the OCHI—about the project.  His aim, as we have discussed here before, is to enable clansmen to rebut the assertion of the self-appointed Scottish-games heraldry police who go around informing various and sundry people that the arms they’re bearing at games within the United States are illegal, inappropriate, out of place, whatever, if they’re not matriculated in Lyon Register.  The underlying concept is, "my chief says it’s all right, so butt out," which implicitly requires a process for the chief to determine which arms are all right and which aren’t.


OH!!!  I can’t wait to run into these guys.  While my wife is Scottish (first generation born here) but we do not wear her Clan’s tartan, we wear one that I designed and registered.  It shows our family connection to Scotland but is unique.  Want them to tell me my Arms and Kilt are out of order…oh lordy that would be fun smile

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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03 January 2012 15:39
 

Distinctive tartans are relatively easy—as to registration, not necessarily design!—because the registry process is simple & inexpensive.  For example, the tartan registry doesn’t require that you be of proven (or even alleged) Scottish descent; just that your new tartan design not too closely resemble an existing design.

Arms are a bit more difficult, because Lyon requires documented proof of Scottish descent etc.; and if you jump that hurdle, the fees are—let’s just say—significant.

 

I can see the desirability of some form of public registration to establish that thus-&-such arms are indeed those born by the would-be clansman & not just some fleeting flight of fantasy;  but the notion of requiring an American wishing to participate heraldically in a Scottish clan, to register& pay fees to some third non-Scottish & non-American national herald, strikes me as—being careful to be appropriate—more than a bit bizarre!  Mr. Macmillan (the herald, not our Joe) seems to not understand the basic nature of American heraldry.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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03 January 2012 16:46
 

Michael F. McCartney;91405 wrote:

Mr. Macmillan (the herald, not our Joe) seems to not understand the basic nature of American heraldry.


Scott MacMillan is very knowledgeable, but as a former employee of the CHOI I think he puts too much store in the concept of granted arms.

 
 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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03 January 2012 19:00
 

Well I’m going to draft my letter and then translate it to spanish and hopefully get it emailed off tomorrow. If I don’t hear anything in two weeks I think we will have to back up and regroup.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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03 January 2012 19:51
 

harold cannon;91426 wrote:

Well I’m going to draft my letter and then translate it to spanish and hopefully get it emailed off tomorrow. If I don’t hear anything in two weeks I think we will have to back up and regroup.


Who are you mailing it to?

 
harold cannon
 
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03 January 2012 20:02
 

Scott sent me a pdf document that explained the process. It was in spanish so I translated it. It has an email that I believe goes to the Marquise de la Floresta.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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03 January 2012 20:32
 

Now why on earth would the representative of a Scottish clan in the United States want you to get certification for your arms from a Spanish authority whose remit does not clearly include personal heraldry?

 
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03 January 2012 21:38
 

Fred White;91431 wrote:

Now why on earth would the representative of a Scottish clan in the United States want you to get certification for your arms from a Spanish authority whose remit does not clearly include personal heraldry?

 


Good question!  As I said before there is still alot of out-dated information and misinformation regarding Spanish heraldry though apparently not limited to the internet.

 
harold cannon
 
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04 January 2012 12:08
 

Today I sent off my letter of petition to have my arms registered. Hopefully I will hear something soon.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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04 January 2012 16:09
 

One allowance that might be made for the Marques de la Floresta’s certifications is this: If what the ACH reports on its website is true, viz., "In a very few cases where H.M. the King has ennobled with a title of nobility and arms, he has on occasion used the Marqués de la Floresta to issue the Certification of nobility and arms to the ennobled person and then personally countersigned the certification manually in his own royal hand. We have been told the King did this as a friendly souvenir gesture to the friend he ennobled but without doubt it also served to make the certification official and legal," then one might suppose that the Ministry of Justice’s refusal to recognize the Marques’s authority to certify personal arms is neither here nor there, and that the King’s silence on the matter, along with his use of the Marques’s services, amounts to endorsement of them.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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04 January 2012 16:51
 

Fred White;91459 wrote:

One allowance that might be made for the Marques de la Floresta’s certifications is this: If what the ACH reports on its website is true, viz., "In a very few cases where H.M. the King has ennobled with a title of nobility and arms, he has on occasion used the Marqués de la Floresta to issue the Certification of nobility and arms to the ennobled person and then personally countersigned the certification manually in his own royal hand. We have been told the King did this as a friendly souvenir gesture to the friend he ennobled but without doubt it also served to make the certification official and legal," then one might suppose that the Ministry of Justice’s refusal to recognize the Marques’s authority to certify personal arms is neither here nor there, and that the King’s silence on the matter, along with his use of the Marques’s services, amounts to endorsement of them.


Except that, as discussed elsewhere, the Council of State has advised that the king himself has no power to grant or confirm arms under the constitution.  The parliament could pass a law giving him that power, but to date has not.  So the King may well have done this as a friendly souvenir gesture to the friend he ennobled (which he can do only on the advice of his ministers, by the way), but whether his signature makes the "grant" of arms official and legal is at best debatable.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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04 January 2012 17:54
 

Joseph McMillan;91461 wrote:

Except that, as discussed elsewhere, the Council of State has advised that the king himself has no power to grant or confirm arms under the constitution.  The parliament could pass a law giving him that power, but to date has not.  So the King may well have done this as a friendly souvenir gesture to the friend he ennobled (which he can do only on the advice of his ministers, by the way), but whether his signature makes the "grant" of arms official and legal is at best debatable.


It’s clear enough where the matter stands in terms of Spanish law. Or perhaps what I should say is that I defer to those more learned in these matters than myself—like you—who conclude that Spanish law comes down against the Marques de la Floresta’s pretense of being able to certify personal arms. But it can appear that the King is willing to lend credence to it and that his tacit approval makes these certifications fit somewhere in the margins of legitimacy. I can imagine, for instance, a diehard monarchist reasoning that the King’s own bias is clearly in favor of having a fully-empowered cronista, and that this is all that really matters, the rest of the government of Spain be damned, etc. Wishful thinking? Maybe, but I can kind of empathize.

 
Charles E. Drake
 
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Charles E. Drake
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05 January 2012 01:11
 

Joseph has persuasively argued that Floresta’s certifications are not official, and as I recall, are of no more value than "scribbling on a paper napkin." He has also pointed out that the King of Spain does not have the legal authority to grant arms.

In spite of the current legality of the situation, there was a time when Floresta’s documents were endorsed by the Ministry of Justice—before his status was "clarified." Similarly, the signature of the King does have some cache’.

 

Regardless of the legality of the situation, Floresta’s documents are still very highly regarded in European chivalric and monarchist circles.

 

Scott MacMillan may not be as fully informed as the members of this forum on matters of heraldry, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

 

Every organization can set its own rules. It is common for orders of chivalry and royal houses to decline to recognize arms unless they have been certified by their own heralds. Similarly, a clan organization can set whatever criteria it chooses. This is what this clan appears to have done.