Registering arms in Spain??????

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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05 January 2012 09:18
 

I did receive approval of my arms early this morning. All I have to do now is remit the small fee and it will be done.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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05 January 2012 10:21
 

Harold, what process are you narrating here? Do you mean the Marques de la Floresta has already approved your arms?

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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05 January 2012 10:43
 

That is correct. I received an email from the Marques de la Floresta this morning stating that they meet the standard of design for him and that he would be happy to register them.

 
JamesD
 
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JamesD
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05 January 2012 12:09
 

harold cannon;91471 wrote:

I received an email from the Marques de la Floresta this morning stating that they meet the standard of design for him and that he would be happy to register them.

Harold

Thanks for keeping us up to date with the progress of your approach to the Marques de la Floresta. You must be happy with his prompt response - the wonders of email! I am interested that, from what you have reported here, he is only stating that your arms "meet the standard of design" that he would expect (and why would he not, they are very fine arms). My apologies to him and to you if I have got this wrong but he appears not to be saying that they are unique in his jurisdiction, an assurance that, I would have thought, would be the minimum that one would hope for in such a registration. Apart from the handsome diploma that is issued (and recognising that you have a very particular reason for registering), I continue to be one of those who is rather puzzled as to the general value of a Spanish ‘registration’.

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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05 January 2012 12:31
 

I am not sure of his process but I would assume that my arms are unique. I have tried very hard to make sure that they are with much time in books and online.

I am going to do the funds transfer at lunch so hopefully it wont be long at all now.

 

Im not to clear on the reasoning myself but its going to be done!

 
Luis Cid
 
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Luis Cid
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05 January 2012 13:47
 

Congrats Harold!

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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05 January 2012 16:09
 

Charles wrote, "Scott MacMillan may not be as fully informed as the members of this forum on matters of heraldry, but I wouldn’t bet on it."

As to heraldry in general, and in particularly Irish heraldry, I expect you’re quite right.  My recollection is that he was a very competent "official" Irish herald.  The doubts I expressed earlier in this thread concerned his understanding of (or perhaps appreciation for) the nature of American heraldry in particular—i.e. those aspects of our heraldry that may differ from the norms of some or all of the particular European traditions.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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05 January 2012 18:51
 

In any case, Harold, I do hope you’ll share with us the end product of your certification from the Marques de la Floresta. As others have noted, he does produce handsome documents, and my recollection is that his fees are a bit more modest than those assessed by most of the heraldic authorities of the Anglosphere. Whatever Clan MacMillan’s reasons for directing you to him, I can certainly appreciate the angle of vision from which what really counts is the esteem in which the Marques’s certifications are held in chivalric and monarchist circles and not what the Spanish courts have to say, because the latter would never cut any legal ice on this side of the pond anyway, while the former might cut at least a little social ice. There are far worse things to invest in.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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05 January 2012 20:31
 

various foreign "circles" and courts notwithstanding (and none relevant here) the Floresta artwork I’ve seen is good, and his registrations (whatever their legal value here or elsewhere) do at least document use of the arms at a stated time—which is all we can expect or should ever need this side of the pond.

Though IMO—and only FWIW of course—publication in our members roll or any other reputable and reasonably stable on-line roll would accomplish the same thing.

 
eploy
 
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eploy
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05 January 2012 22:19
 

Congratulations Harold!  I agree with others that while the Marques de la Floresta’s certifications no longer have any legal cache (they did from 1991 - 1994 or 1995), they still retain some social cache.  Furthermore, his certifications are very attractive and can be used to document your accomplishments and family background in a very attractive leather-bound volume.

IMO, be sure to ask the Marques de la Floresta to have your certification notarized by a Spanish notary (i.e., a special category of Spanish lawyer).  At least in that way the document will eventually make its way into some public archive and perhaps even into the records of the Spanish Ministry of Justice, but you should ask about the latter.

 

Of course such certification has no validity under Spanish heraldic law, but it does have validity under the Spanish law(s) regarding notarized documents, and does establish yet another clear adoption date for your arms at least within Spain.  Both legally and morally, I think this is the best you can do in Spain at this time given the lack of an officially recognized Cronista (i.e., recognized by the Spanish Ministry of Justice).

 
Donald
 
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Donald
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08 January 2012 13:18
 

Joseph McMillan;91461 wrote:

Except that, as discussed elsewhere, the Council of State has advised that the king himself has no power to grant or confirm arms under the constitution.  The parliament could pass a law giving him that power, but to date has not.  So the King may well have done this as a friendly souvenir gesture to the friend he ennobled (which he can do only on the advice of his ministers, by the way), but whether his signature makes the "grant" of arms official and legal is at best debatable.


What actually powers does the Spanish Monarch have when it comes to ennoblement?

 

Can he create Knights/Dames of Orders on his own? Elevate someone to Infante?

 

Or, must everything regarding ennoblement be approved by his ministers?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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08 January 2012 14:21
 

Donald;91568 wrote:

What actually powers does the Spanish Monarch have when it comes to ennoblement?

Can he create Knights/Dames of Orders on his own? Elevate someone to Infante?

 

Or, must everything regarding ennoblement be approved by his ministers?


Since an infante is the son of a king, I guess the Spanish monarch can create as many and he and his wife are able and willing to create!

 

The conferring of noble titles and appointments to orders may only be done with the approval of ministers.  The king can’t do much of anything substantive without ministerial approval except make appointments to positions within his own household.

 

From part II of the Spanish Constitution (official translation):

 

"Sec 56 (1)  The person of the King is inviolable and shall not be held accountable.  His acts shall always be countersigned in the manner established in section 64. Without such countersignature they shall not be valid, except as provided under section 65(2) [which has to do with appointments in the royal household].

 

"Sec 59 It is incumbent upon the King:

***

f) To issue the decrees approved in the Council of Ministers, to confer civil and military positions and award honours and distinctions in conformity with the law.

 

"Sec 64 (1) The King’s acts shall be countersigned by the President of the Government and, when appropriate, by the competent ministers."

 
kimon
 
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kimon
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08 January 2012 14:56
 

Joseph McMillan;91569 wrote:

Since an infante is the son of a king, I guess the Spanish monarch can create as many and he and his wife are able and willing to create!

To add to the above in case someone brings up the example of Infante Carlos, Duke of Calabria, claimant to the throne of the Two Sicilies and cousin of the King who is not the son of a king.

The Infante Carlos was created Infante in 1994 by Royal Decree and signed by the Prime Minister. See http://www.boe.es/aeboe/consultas/bases_datos/doc.php?coleccion=iberlex&id=1994/27905

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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10 January 2012 16:48
 

Today I received a copy of my registration to check for corrections. I corrected it and sent it back so hopefully it won’t be long now.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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10 January 2012 17:37
 

That was pretty quick!