Buckeye inspired arms

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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05 January 2013 13:51
 

In my opinion, considering that the Pacific dogwood grows only in a relatively limited area, the "default dogwood" in the United States would probably be the four-petaled version. (Perhaps our west coast colleagues do indeed hear "dogwood" and think "Pacific dogwood," in which case I stand corrected.) Nevertheless, by all means blazon "eastern dogwood" or "flowering dogwood" if you think there’s a risk of confusion. I simply suggest that having clarified in plain English which kind of dogwood is meant, one does not then need to add Cornus florida to make the blazon clear.

In Canada, the heraldic authority generally blazons both species as simply "dogwood." Altogether dogwood blossoms appear 23 times in the online CHA register.

 

"Dogwood" for a 5 petaled Pacific dogwood—9

"Dogwood" for a 6 petaled Pacific dogwood—7

"Dogwood" for a 4 petaled Eastern dogwood—1

 

"Pacific dogwood" with 6 petals—2

"Pacific dogwood" with 5 petals—2

 

"Dogwood (Cornus nuttallii)" with 5 petals—1

"Eastern dogwood (Cornus florida)" with 4 petals—1

 

All of the depictions of Pacific dogwood are either for persons or institutions in British Columbia, of which the Pacific dogwood is the floral emblem, or (in the case of the arms of our fellow member Neil Fraser) are intended to symbolize a BC connection. Both the depictions of eastern dogwood are for institutions in the only area of Canada where that tree is found, the narrow strip of southern Ontario along the north shore of Lake Erie.

 

Given the relative prevalence of the two species in Canada, I think it makes sense for them to treat the Pacific species as the default when they blazon "dogwood," and it seems to me that exactly the opposite is true in the United States—if an American coat of arms shows the four-petaled flower, it need be blazoned as simply "dogwood." Conversely, if it shows the 5 or 6 petaled species, then "Pacific dogwood" should be specified.

 

All a matter of personal preference of course.

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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05 January 2013 14:46
 

Kenneth Mansfield;97173 wrote:

While the cinqefoil will work for fraises and also for the Pacific Dogwood, a quatrefoil is insufficient to represent the Eastern Dogwood because of the "nail marks" at the end of each petal, which may be critical in one’s choice of the flower.


An interesting legend, of which, being European (and thus with no knowledge of the plant) I had not heard. Is it a recent association (the link took me to a book dated 1997) or does it have much older origins?

 

James

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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05 January 2013 15:53
 

James Dempster;97184 wrote:

An interesting legend, of which, being European (and thus with no knowledge of the plant) I had not heard. Is it a recent association (the link took me to a book dated 1997) or does it have much older origins?


I think I’ve been hearing about it since I was a kid in the early 1960s.  The "legend of the dogwood" used to be printed on cards and such at roadside souvenir shops on highways through Virginia and the Carolinas.

 

According to http://lnger.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/was-jesus-crucified-on-a-dogwoog-legend-or-mystery-of-the-red-heifer/ the legend was printed in The Victoria Advocate on Easter Sunday, April 18, 1954.  It seems that this paper is published in Victoria, Texas.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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05 January 2013 16:02
 

Likewise, I grew up hearing it in the 1970s (if I heard it in the 60s, I have no recollection smile). I have no idea of the origin.

 
 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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06 January 2013 22:31
 

I would think that, just as a quatrefoil and a cinquefoil are treated AFAIF as two distinct charges, because they are visually distinct, a blazon for "dogwood" should specify, one way or another, the number of petals and, at least by implication, indicate which shape (e.g. "Pacific" or "Eastern"—I agree with Joe that the Latin name is overkill in this case).

(I hope this doesn’t come across as contrary to my last lengthy rant—while a stag is a stag is a stag is a buck is a hart, essentially interchangeably, this is in significant part because of the relatively common historical practice of treating them as the same heraldic beast.  Dogwood AFAIK doesn’t have that history, except in some but not all of the Canadian examples Joe cites.  The two varieties of dogwood flowers, despite the shared name, bear little resemblance to each other beyond being white.  The difference is quite sufficient to be clearly distinguishable in small scale or at a distance; such that I would view "Azure a Pacific dogwood flower Argent [or Proper]" and "Azure an Eastern dogwood flower Argent [or Proper]" as distinct, non-infringing arms.

 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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07 January 2013 11:54
 

Kenneth Mansfield;97173 wrote:

...a quatrefoil is insufficient to represent the Eastern Dogwood because of the "nail marks" at the end of each petal, which may be critical in one’s choice of the flower.


I attended grade school from 1964~1968 in Fayetteville, North Carolina since my father was in Special Forces.  The dogwood is the state flower and we were taught in school about not only the four nail wounds, but also the thorn of crowns in the center of the blossom.

 

Cheers!

—Guy

 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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07 January 2013 14:25
 

I am under the impression that the art of the blazon is to convey the arms as completely and succinctly as possible, while following a typical pattern (field, ordinary, charges on field, charges on ordinary…).


Joseph McMillan;97182 wrote:

In Canada, the heraldic authority generally blazons both species as simply "dogwood." Altogether dogwood blossoms appear 23 times in the online CHA register.

"Dogwood" for a 5 petaled Pacific dogwood—9

"Dogwood" for a 6 petaled Pacific dogwood—7

"Dogwood" for a 4 petaled Eastern dogwood—1

 

"Pacific dogwood" with 6 petals—2

"Pacific dogwood" with 5 petals—2

 

"Dogwood (Cornus nuttallii)" with 5 petals—1

"Eastern dogwood (Cornus florida)" with 4 petals—1

I do not think that a blazon of plain ‘dogwood’ is incorrect, so long as the armiger does not desire a specific species.  If, however, an armiger like David Pope does desire one specific species of the five dozen some dogwoods out there, then I am of the opinion that the use of taxonomical names is both specific and concise.  While I do not expect a heraldic artist to become a zoological or botanical expert in their free time, the use of the scientific name does provide him or her with an unequivocal place to start.  Turning to a field guide under “Pacific Dogwood” is no less difficult than looking up “Cornus nuttallii”; in some instances the latter may prove to be less ambiguous.


Michael F. McCartney;97201 wrote:

I hope this doesn’t come across as contrary to my last lengthy rant—while a stag is a stag is a stag is a buck is a hart, essentially interchangeably, this is in significant part because of the relatively common historical practice of treating them as the same heraldic beast.  Dogwood AFAIK doesn’t have that history, except in some but not all of the Canadian examples Joe cites.  The two varieties of dogwood flowers, despite the shared name, bear little resemblance to each other beyond being white.  The difference is quite sufficient to be clearly distinguishable in small scale or at a distance; such that I would view "Azure a Pacific dogwood flower Argent [or Proper]" and "Azure an Eastern dogwood flower Argent [or Proper]" as distinct, non-infringing arms.

If I were Chief Herald, I’m not sure if I would consider a Pacific dogwood (C.nuttallii) and an Eastern dogwood (C.florida) to be district enough to be borne on otherwise identical shields.  When searching across the fog of a battlefield, does a commander really have time to count petals and properly discern the shape of flower petals?

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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07 January 2013 20:22
 

Steve wrote, "If I were Chief Herald, I’m not sure if I would consider a Pacific dogwood (C.nuttallii) and an Eastern dogwood (C.florida) to be district enough to be borne on otherwise identical shields. When searching across the fog of a battlefield, does a commander really have time to count petals and properly discern the shape of flower petals?"

Depends on how distant and how much fire & brimstone, I suppose.  But in a context that treats two lions as heraldically different depending on which way the head is turned, or whether the tail is plain or knotted or double or forked, the visual difference between a five-petal blossom and David’s quite distinctive four-petal blossom should IMO be more than sufficient.