United States Heraldic Registry Website Down

 
kimon
 
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kimon
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05 April 2013 14:23
 

Kenneth Mansfield;98321 wrote:

I agree that it is a good idea to document your coat of arms. But it’s also important to vet where you do so. The first choice I would think for anyone in the United States would be the Committee on Heraldry of the New England Historic Genealogical Society.

I agree but, they seem to never respond. Or, at least, never respond to me.

I sent in my application and check way back in 2008 to register, never heard anything. I contacted them in 2009 and 2010, still no word.

I just quit trying…


Quote:

Of the online registries, the United States Heraldic Registry (USHR) was by far the most prolific and the most reputable. Michael Swanson of the USHR was very involved here at one time and as Director of IT, he was instrumental in getting our current website set up and in maintaining the forum. Michael had some big ideas, not the least of which was his registry. But life pulls us all in different directions and in the end it seems the registry was too much for Michael to maintain by himself and he never accepted help.

Agreed 100%


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There are a couple of online registries still in existence and I wouldn’t go near either with a ten-foot USB cable.

First of all, if your register’s own coat of arms is as bad as this:

{list of really bad arms}

 

...then I don’t see any positive advantage from being associated with them in any way shape or form. The sooner they go belly-up the better as far as I’m concerned.

I’m a big fan of getting your arms out there as much as possible but, the venues above are the wrong places. I avoid them like the plague.


Quote:

I don’t have any thoughts whatsoever on the United States Armorials as there doesn’t seem to be anything there. And as near as I can tell, The Armorial Register: International Register of Arms is a for-profit venture and as a result perhaps seems to be a collection of "better" heraldry.

Agreed on the Armorial Register (run by a fellow Society Member, btw).

I would also add the Augustan Society to the list of places one may register arms. There are plans on publishing an online armorial some time in the future, no hard dates yet.

 

I don’t know if the American College of Heraldry will ever publish an online armorial.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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05 April 2013 15:00
 

kimon;98322 wrote:

I would also add the Augustan Society to the list of places one may register arms. There are plans on publishing an online armorial some time in the future, no hard dates yet.

I don’t know if the American College of Heraldry will ever publish an online armorial.


Both of the above are very much in the same league as The International Register in that they charge for registration. In addition to the fees collected for registration, the ACH sells print editions of it’s rolls and the Augustan Society publishes The Augustan Society Roll of Arms which includes some arms from the registry, though not all I think. It would be great if either would produce an online registry.

 
 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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05 April 2013 15:03
 

Kenneth Mansfield;98321 wrote:

Of the online registries, the United States Heraldic Registry (USHR) was by far the most prolific and the most reputable. Michael Swanson of the USHR was very involved here at one time and as Director of IT, he was instrumental in getting our current website set up and in maintaining the forum. Michael had some big ideas, not the least of which was his registry. But life pulls us all in different directions and in the end it seems the registry was too much for Michael to maintain by himself and he never accepted help.

I reached out to Michael on several occasions, and through several different lines of communication, to offer him help with the USHR.  Sadly, he never relied.  It is a shame to see it go down.


kimon;98322 wrote:

I agree but, they seem to never respond. Or, at least, never respond to me.

I sent in my application and check way back in 2008 to register, never heard anything. I contacted them in 2009 and 2010, still no word.

I just quit trying…

I successfully recorded my arms with the NEHGS in May 2012.  Some sort of registration document would have been nice, but it is what it is.


Quote:

I would also add the Augustan Society to the list of places one may register arms. There are plans on publishing an online armorial some time in the future, no hard dates yet.

I don’t know much about the Augustan Society, except for all of the various societies, and orders, and lineage groups that it seems to support.  It strikes my as having a bit too many irons in the fire.


Quote:

I don’t know if the American College of Heraldry will ever publish an online armorial.

They definitely should!  It would be a great repository to scroll through.  I wonder what the overall quality of their arms are.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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05 April 2013 15:20
 

steven harris;98324 wrote:

I wonder what the overall quality of their arms are.


Seems to vary about as much as those designed over at the IAAH. Some are nice and others you say, "Really?" Go here and click on "Registrations" on the left navigation. It surely isn’t inclusive, but it must be fairly representative.

 
 
Snyder
 
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Snyder
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05 April 2013 15:25
 

Kenneth Mansfield;98321 wrote:

...then I don’t see any positive advantage from being associated with them in any way shape or form. The sooner they go belly-up the better as far as I’m concerned.


With examples you provided, I wholeheartedly agree. I had considered submitting my arms to the sit in which two of the images were from, but I felt that if they owner/s couldn’t represent themselves professionally, then how well would the represent myself and others who submit?.

 

USHR’s domain doesn’t expire until May of 2015, so there is still time to bring it back, but I’m not going to hold my breathe.

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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05 April 2013 15:26
 

You know, with all of the concerns noted above, registration with South Africa is looking better all the time…;)

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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05 April 2013 15:33
 

David Pope;98327 wrote:

You know, with all of the concerns noted above, registration with South Africa is looking better all the time…;)


I sincerely hope that wink means you’re joking.

 
 
steven harris
 
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05 April 2013 15:33
 

Kenneth Mansfield;98325 wrote:

Seems to vary about as much as those designed over at the IAAH. Some are nice and others you say, "Really?" Go here and click on "Registrations" on the left navigation. It surely isn’t inclusive, but it must be fairly representative.

Thanks for the link.  I’m sure that a mix of good and bad heraldry can be found outside of the IAAH and the ACH.  We’ve all seen some questionable arms from London and Lyon.

Is South Africa questionable as well?

 
Snyder
 
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Snyder
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05 April 2013 15:37
 

steven harris;98329 wrote:

Is South Africa questionable as well?


And apparently, South Africa wink

 
Snyder
 
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05 April 2013 15:38
 

steven harris;98329 wrote:

We’ve all seen some questionable arms from London and Lyon.


And apparently, South Africa wink

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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05 April 2013 15:40
 

steven harris;98329 wrote:

Thanks for the link.  I’m sure that a mix of good and bad heraldry can be found outside of the IAAH and the ACH.  We’ve all seen some questionable arms from London and Lyon.

Is South Africa questionable as well?


I’m sure every heraldic registry/authority/society has it’s fair share of stinkers. My only contention with South African registration is that, unless you need it to join some fancy-schmancy chivalric organization and you can’t obtain a grant from somewhere else, it serves no purpose whatsoever. Why would I look to South Africa for a record of arms for my family if my family has no connection to South Africa at all? I wouldn’t. And I wouldn’t expect future generations to look there either. It makes no sense.

 
 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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05 April 2013 16:25
 

Kenneth Mansfield;98328 wrote:

I sincerely hope that wink means you’re joking.


I’m not sure.  Although I have an intuitive dissatisfaction with registering arms in a foreign country that I have no historical connection to, I am considering it.

 

In my particular case, our clan chief has indicated that his approval of the use of personal heraldry in a clan-gathering context is premised upon recognition by an official national authority.  Since the Lord Lyon and the Canadian Heraldic Authority do not include me in their jurisdiction, they’re out.  The College of Arms and the Chief Herald of Ireland’s fees are higher than I am willing to pay at this time.  Until the United States or North Carolina creates an official registry (probably never), that leaves South Africa.

 

Everyone with whom I’ve communicated who has been through this process with SA feels like they’ve received good value for their money.  For the fee you pay you get (1) a date-certain official registration of your arms by a foreign government, (2) an attractive certificate featuring an emblazonment of your arms to hang on your wall, and (3) top-notch customer service and advice from their National Heralds.

 

I’m just not convinced that there is any benefit to registration with a private body here in the United States.  If one intends to put the world on notice of your assumption of certain arms, the internet seems to be the most effective way of doing that.  As Joe demonstrated earlier, internet posts seem to live forever.  Private registration bodies tend to go defunct or have very poor customer service (this, based on my own experience) and the fees they charge seem too high to me for the little they offer.

 

I’ve not made any decisions yet, as I’m still not satisfied with the design of my arms.  I’m trying to keep an open mind, though.

 
Snyder
 
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Snyder
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05 April 2013 16:38
 

I have considered South Africa myself, but haven’t made any serious strides towards it.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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05 April 2013 18:10
 

If we ever get to the point in this country where courts will protect arms based on prior use, it won’t be date-certain registration that matters, it will be date-certain use.  In fact, I suspect that a good lawyer would argue that registration in a foreign jurisdiction only proves use in that jurisdiction, not here.

In France, arms can be recorded by notarial act.  Granted that a civil law notary is a different kind of animal from a common law notary, the concept of putting the arms on public/legal record might translate.  Why not put an ad in whatever your newspaper of legal record is?  You know, like the ones that say you won’t be responsible for the debts of your deadbeat brother-in-law, only, "Effective such-and-such a date I have assumed the arms, [blazon] as illustrated, etc. etc."  Although I suspect that since web pages are effectively date-stamped when they’re changed, uploading the arms on a website probably would suffice just as well to prove first use.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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07 April 2013 00:52
 

Oh great, the best we can do is include our arms with the fine-print deadbeat debtor notices and used car ads in the Kumquat County Advertiser?  smile

Seriously, Federal copyright registration of an emblazonment, for all it’s heraldic inadequacies, is looking better and better.  While it provides no useful protection for the unique heraldic design itself—only the artwork is original enough to copyright—it does at least demonstrate actual use in the US as of a date certain.  And it is a record that will survive the vagaries of technology—today’s top-notch on-line tech is tomorrow’s 8-track buggy whip.

 

Ah well…