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steven harris
 
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steven harris
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07 April 2013 07:27
 

David Pope;98334 wrote:

In my particular case, our clan chief has indicated that his approval of the use of personal heraldry in a clan-gathering context is premised upon recognition by an official national authority.  Since the Lord Lyon and the Canadian Heraldic Authority do not include me in their jurisdiction, they’re out.  The College of Arms and the Chief Herald of Ireland’s fees are higher than I am willing to pay at this time.  Until the United States or North Carolina creates an official registry (probably never), that leaves South Africa.

Since I live in an unregulated heraldic jurisdiction, my Chief simply accepted my assumed arms as-is; he didn’t require me to register them anywhere (although they are recorded with the NEHGS).

 
J. Stolarz
 
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J. Stolarz
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07 April 2013 13:05
 

I think the biggest downfall is all of these collections of arms that do exist from around the world, don’t have online documentation.  Yes it’s great that there are books on some of them, but of course a good portion of them are out of print so you can’t obtain them anyway.  Then the societies that handle the records of the arms, make it very difficult to obtain and there’s really no way to search them if you’re not sure which relative may have had an arms, so you have to pay them hundreds of dollars to do a search that may yield nothing.  Kind of annoying wink.

 
Jeremy Keith Hammond
 
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Jeremy Keith Hammond
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09 April 2013 16:08
 

kimon;98322 wrote:

I agree but, they seem to never respond. Or, at least, never respond to me.

I sent in my application and check way back in 2008 to register, never heard anything. I contacted them in 2009 and 2010, still no word.

I just quit trying…

 


Not to back track too much, but I did get a pretty strong impression the NEHGS CoH does not have much motivation for its work. See this thread: http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6568

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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11 April 2013 00:45
 

just curious, but which chiefs are we talking about?

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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11 April 2013 08:52
 

MacMillan of MacMillan and Knap

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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11 April 2013 09:01
 

David Pope;98429 wrote:

MacMillan of MacMillan and Knap

Michael F. McCartney;98421 wrote:

just curious, but which chiefs are we talking about?


Who is taking his advice from someone who once worked in the office of the Chief Herald of Ireland. I’m not saying this advisor is biased towards granted arms, but….

 
 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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11 April 2013 09:28
 

Michael F. McCartney;98421 wrote:

just curious, but which chiefs are we talking about?

Chief MacLeod of Harris & Dunvegan.  The letter that I have from him is rather carefully worded to allow the use of my arms in a clan-context (banner of arms, crest badge, &c.) but only outside of Scotland; since such usage inside of Scotland is under the sole jurisdiction of Lord Lyon.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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11 April 2013 10:14
 

steven harris;98433 wrote:

Chief MacLeod of Harris & Dunvegan.  The letter that I have from him is rather carefully worded to allow the use of my arms in a clan-context (banner of arms, crest badge, &c.) but only outside of Scotland; since such usage inside of Scotland is under the sole jurisdiction of Lord Lyon.


That really only applies if you are a resident. There shouldn’t be any problem if you were, say, attending a highland games in Scotland.

 
 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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11 April 2013 11:03
 

Kenneth Mansfield;98430 wrote:

Who is taking his advice from someone who once worked in the office of the Chief Herald of Ireland. I’m not saying this advisor is biased towards granted arms, but….


I will.  I like Scott MacMillan, but have had long conversations on this subject with him, and he is.

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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11 April 2013 11:11
 

Steven just to let you know you CAN use your banner, crest, and arms in Scotland. I have it straight from Mr. Gorie of the Lyon office. I posted the conversation here but I can email it to you if you like.

David I registered mine in Spain and that worked just fine and costs only about $100.00

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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11 April 2013 11:24
 

harold cannon;98438 wrote:

David I registered mine in Spain and that worked just fine and costs only about $100.00


Sigh.  I presume with the Marques de la Floresta.  Whose official authority to issue certifications of personal arms is precisely equal to that of the NEHGS Committee on Heraldry or the ACH.

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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11 April 2013 13:49
 

Something I am finding out about heraldry and registering arms is that the importance of who the arms are registered with is directly related to the country your feet are planted in at the time.

To be quite honest the ONLY reasons I went that route was, it was one of the options given to me to be able to use my arms in conjunction with clan events, and it was the cheaper option.

 

There is only one true solution to the debate of which registry is best and that is to have an international registery that is approved by all heraldic bodies. Of course we all know that this will never come to pass.

 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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11 April 2013 13:52
 

Joseph McMillan;98440 wrote:

Sigh.  I presume with the Marques de la Floresta.  Whose official authority to issue certifications of personal arms is precisely equal to that of the NEHGS Committee on Heraldry or the ACH.

It looks like Don Alfonso was officially appointed by the local government of Castile-León with a mandate to register arms.  If that is correct (my source is third-hand), then he might have a bit more authority than the NEHGS or the ACH, which are private bodies and have no authority in law – at least as far as the arms in Castile-León are concerned, anyway.


harold cannon;98441 wrote:

it was one of the options given to me to be able to use my arms in conjunction with clan events

Then I am quite lucky that my Chief has a more progressive view of things!

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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11 April 2013 14:35
 

Harold,

It isn’t a question of which is best.

 

As I said, I’ve discussed this issue at length with Scott MacMillan, and as best I can understand it his view is that a grant, matriculation, registration, or certification from any official heraldic authority somehow guarantees the authenticity of the arms in a way that a private registry doesn’t.

 

This makes no sense to me. A Scottish or English grant is solid gold in Scotland or England, but in itself worthless in Germany unless it proves prior use to a coat of arms that is under dispute in a German court, and even then only if the German court is willing to accept the foreign document into evidence. Conversely, publication of the arms in one of the private German rolls of arms would, according to German heraldists, be accepted as establishing a claim to the arms as of a date certain. So which is better in Germany, the Scottish matriculation or the entry in the Niedersachsische Wappenrolle?

 

Now if we move the discussion to the U.S. context, none of these documents is of any legal value.  Or at least of no more legal value than a certificate issued by private American heraldic register.  So we’re talking moral or emotional value, I guess.

 

If that’s the point, then I kind of get why one might think a grant from Lyon would carry some kind of special cachet in the context of a Scottish event outside Scotland. I don’t agree, but I get it. But given the above, why on earth would that apply to a South African registration or a Spanish certificate, even if issued by a duly appointed cronista?

 

And how much less to a certificate issued by a Spanish cronista who was not properly appointed to certify personal arms under Spanish law?

 

I’m not looking for an answer, just venting.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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11 April 2013 14:49
 

steven harris;98442 wrote:

It looks like Don Alfonso was officially appointed by the local government of Castile-León with a mandate to register arms. If that is correct (my source is third-hand), then he might have a bit more authority than the NEHGS or the ACH, which are private bodies and have no authority in law – at least as far as the arms in Castile-León are concerned, anyway.


Well, sure, I guess.  The same kind of validity that passports issued by me would have if I were appointed a consular agent by the Commonwealth of Virginia.

 

The Commonwealth of Virginia doesn’t have the power to issue passports under U.S. law, because the conduct of foreign relations is reserved to the federal government.  So any passports I might issue under my Virginia consular commission would be worthless.

 

The government of Castile-Leon has power over the heraldry of its own agencies and municipalities under the laws setting it up as an autonomous government.  It does not have authority over personal heraldry, because that was not among the powers conveyed to C&L when the autonomy was established.  So to the extent that Don Alfonso’s commission from C&L purports to empower him to certify personal arms, it is invalid.

 

That’s not me saying so, but the Spanish Council of State.  Don Alfonso seems to have a different view, but my chips are on the Council.