I have a friend who has expressed interest in having arms. He is a Scott of Scottish decent and interested in the Scottish tradition of arms based on those of his clan chief. The arms of Scott of Buccleuch (chief of the name) are Or on a bend Azure a star between two crescents Or.

One of the ideas my friend had for differencing the arms was to add a blue chief with a Kentucky longrifle on it to represent the American frontier - his family settled on the VA frontier in the mid-1770s and were among the first to settle in Kentucky in the 1790s. I thought the intersection of the chief with the blue bend was a little awkward, so I fooled around with some other ideas including putting the rifle on a fess between two stars and a crescent (reminiscent of some other Scott arms), but I felt like they were too far removed from the base arms.

Then, while perusing the Roll of Early American Arms last night I came across the arms of Gen. Winfield Scott (Dinwiddie Co, Va, 1786-West Point, N.Y., 1866) - Or on a bend Azure an estoile between two crescents Or in chief a spear palewise proper - I thought that simply adding the longrifle to the field might be a fitting complement to the arms of other early American Scotts. But how? It’s a really long and narrow item and drawing it otherwise would simply make it look like some other type of rifle. I drew inspiration from our fellow member James Dempster’s arms and put it in bend sinister behind the ordinary. I then made the additional change of altering the lines of the bend to bretesse to mimic the footprint of the early frontier forts in Kentucky.

This then could be the arms of my friend’s 4xgreat grandfather. If they want to mess with cadency and all that jazz, that’s up to them, but I’m trying to tell them that it would have been unlikely to happen once the family moved to the Americas.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/180/scottjohnshield02b.png

Or a Kentucky longrifle in bend sinister proper surmounted by a bend bretesse Azure charged with a star between two crescents Or.

I like it.

[editorial comment]Now you need to do a crest and a motto and a personal badge and a badge for his retainers and a badge to mark his property and personally distinctive style of helmet and a standard a guidon and a pinsel and something that would look like supporters without being supporters because that would be wrong and…

Or maybe just a crest and motto. [/editorial comment]

Joseph McMillan;98474 wrote:

I like it.

[editorial comment]Now you need to do a crest and a motto and a personal badge and a badge for his retainers and a badge to mark his property and personally distinctive style of helmet and a standard a guidon and a pinsel and something that would look like supporters without being supporters because that would be wrong and…

 

Or maybe just a crest and motto. [/editorial comment]

I see this is your issue of the week joe.

Not just for the week.

I’m going to refrain from using my moderator’s privileges and simply deleting the last two posts, but come on, guys. I appreciate that Joe brought it up, but at least he also commented on the arms which are the topic of this thread.

Kenneth,

I like your treatment of the bend, and appreciate your desire to incorporate the rifle.  From a distance, though, it is difficult to recognize.  Instead of the rifle on the shield, what about 1) adding a crescent azure in chief, or 2) putting the bend between two crescents azure for the Kentucky allusion? (What can I say…I’m a Bill Monroe fan!)

Since I’m not as zealous a minimalist as Joe, I’d then move the rifle to the crest.  Not quite sure about the blazon, but showing a dexter arm couped at the forearm, palm facing out, grasping a Kentucky long rifle sinister bendwise proper.

Kenneth Mansfield;98480 wrote:

I’m going to refrain from using my moderator’s privileges and simply deleting the last two posts, but come on, guys. I appreciate that Joe brought it up, but at least he also commented on the arms which are the topic of this thread.

Kenneth,

You’re right, I appologise the comment was only meant in jest.  as for the Arms I like the design but something just seems off to me.  I like david’s idea to move the rifle to the crest.  maybe something like the Nat’l Guard Insignia except a frointeersmen with a Kentucky Longrifle.  as for the shield maybe the current blazon either less the rifle or less the charges upon the bend.  but overall it is a sound design and my suggestions are in no way "superior" to the current design, just personal opinion.

Pax,

Brett

The KY long rifle is great symbolism but as noted a bit hard to make out in small scale or at a distance.  How anout some other "fatter" charges to make the same point?—maybe the bend as drawn between two powder horns?—and then incorporate the rifle in the crest as suggested, with the arm vested in fringed buckskin?

The Kentucky longrifle is indeed quintessential to the American frontier, but it might be difficult to discern on arms.

I don’t know if this would be too far removed from the stem arms, but could you move the Scott of Buccleuch bend to a chief, which would then give you the rest of the field to play with?

Or ______, on a Chief embattled Azure a star between two crescents Or

While there are a handful of us who would recognize the connection after "converting" the bend to a chief, I think the average person would not see the result as a "Scott" coat of arms. As I said in the first post, my friend’s original idea was to simply add a blue chief and put a longrifle on it.

As I have stated in more than one design thread on this forum, I often try to tweak suggestions that potential armigers make rather than trying to come up with something altogether new. In taking this approach, my aim is to give them a sense of ownership that they might not otherwise get from a design suggested by a stranger on the Internet.

In this case, he suggested a Kentucky longrifle to represent his family’s settling on the frontier. Inspired by the arms of "Old Fuss and Feathers" I put the rifle on the field, and further inspired by the arms of James Dempster, I was able to get it to take up as much room as possible. I don’t think it’s any less discernible than Gen. Scott’s spear, maybe even more so. And of course, the obvious thing my friend overlooked is to change the lines of the bend.

Anyway, I’m not going to put any more time into tweaking the design for two reasons. 1) He seems to be completely satisfied with this one. 2) I don’t think he intends to assume arms, but rather to save his pennies and seek a grant from Lord Lyon for his 5xg-gf. This I think was an exercise in finding a good starting point for negotiations with Lyon Court and it is certainly very likely he will wind up with something altogether different.

Still, fun to speculate & suggest, whatever the eventual outcome.

Kenneth Mansfield;98518 wrote:

I don’t think he intends to assume arms, but rather to save his pennies and seek a grant from Lord Lyon for his 5xg-gf. This I think was an exercise in finding a good starting point for negotiations with Lyon Court and it is certainly very likely he will wind up with something altogether different.

I can’t wait to see what comes out of that.