The Coat of Arms of Rutgers

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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24 February 2009 09:20
 

David Pritchard;66885 wrote:

I can just imagine that it was your plain approach that soured your introduction to the Rutgers staff. As for the university, my eldest sister graduated from it and still speaks of the quality of her professors and their excellent instruction to this day.


Or perhaps it was that I did not go directly to the archivist first, and there was an unintended lawyer in the mix somewhere.

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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24 February 2009 14:02
 

I must have missed this thread the first time round and I’m rather amused at the heat it generated. Whilst in some ways Rutgers heraldry is deplorable, it follows the traditions of many universities (certainly in the UK) of making use of the arms of founders, other significant patrons &c, sometimes marshalled to make "new" arms, sometimes slightly differenced, and sometimes just pinched completely.

These are the arms of the University of Aberdeen, which I attended

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/Aberdeen_University_arms.jpg

 

Quarterly 1st: The burgh of Old Aberdeen, 2nd Keith, Earl Marischal (for George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal, founder of Marischal College), 3rd Elphinstone, Lord Elphinstone (for William Elphinstone, Bishop of Aberdeen, founder of King’s College), 4th one of the towers from the arms of the city of (New) Aberdeen.

 

However, there are older institutions than Aberdeen that have done similar things in terms of their use of heraldry.

 

Balliol College Oxford

 

http://archives.balliol.ox.ac.uk/images/armsthb.gif

 

These are the arms of Dervorguilla of Galloway, wife of Sir John de Balliol of Barnard Castle, per her seal of 1282. Previous to this they just used the plain arms of Sir John.

 

Christ Church College Oxford

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/Christ_Church_Oxford_arms.gif

 

It is a college, honest, it just happens to use the arms of its founder, Cardinal Wolsey, hat and all.

 

It’s not only Oxford, Cambridge does it too.

 

St John’s uses the arms of Lady Margaret Beaufort, undifferenced

 

http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/cms_misc/templates/home/home_logo.gif

 

Plenty of others do the same. Pembroke College Cambridge uses the dimidiated arms of Aymer de Valence, Earl of Pembroke and his wife Marie de St Pol and Queens’ College Cambridge uses the arms of Margaret of Anjou differenced by a bordure vert.

 

Maybe not a good practice, but an old one.

 

James

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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24 February 2009 15:00
 

The older colleges that bear the arms of their namesake usually had permission, if I am not mistaken, to do so from the armiger, as he would be the one that donated the money for the college.  Just as in Italy when the great families would build churches and cathedrals they were allowed to adorn the facade with their family arms to show the patronage, using the arms of the donor was simply a way to show patronage.

The arms usurping Orange arms because there were Dutch families therein is not the same as arms used due to patronage.  Even if the college was allowed the arms of the English King and Queen, changing the name and the American independence would certainly give cause for the use of those arms to be revoked.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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24 February 2009 15:31
 

Michael Swanson;66893 wrote:

Or perhaps it was that I did not go directly to the archivist first, and there was an unintended lawyer in the mix somewhere.


I wish I had known you were trying this. I live about a ten minute drive away from Rutgers and I know quite a few people who work there who might have been able to get a foot in the door for you. Plus, I speak New Jersean.

 
David E. Cohen
 
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David E. Cohen
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24 February 2009 17:06
 

gselvester;66914 wrote:

Plus, I speak New Jersean.


Would that be J√®rriais, with an American accent?  LOL

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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24 February 2009 17:17
 

gselvester;66914 wrote:

I wish I had known you were trying this. I live about a ten minute drive away from Rutgers and I know quite a few people who work there who might have been able to get a foot in the door for you. Plus, I speak New Jersean.


It was three years ago.  I still am not sure of the blazon since they seem to have adulterated some of the original tinctures.

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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Michael Y. Medvedev
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24 February 2009 17:22
 

Just BTW, a lion Or [of Nassau] or rather a griffin Or [of Rostock, for Mecklenburg] in a field semy of plows would look lovely smile

 
Nick B II
 
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Nick B II
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24 February 2009 23:54
 

Michael Swanson;66893 wrote:

Or perhaps it was that I did not go directly to the archivist first, and there was an unintended lawyer in the mix somewhere.

Obviously not a very good lawyer. There’s this thing called the first amendment…

Yo mods,

 

You might wanna remove the unnameable entity’s name from the title of this thread. Lawsuits are a pain. Even BS ones.

 

Nick

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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25 February 2009 01:31
 

xanderliptak;66910 wrote:

The older colleges that bear the arms of their namesake usually had permission, if I am not mistaken, to do so from the armiger, as he would be the one that donated the money for the college.  Just as in Italy when the great families would build churches and cathedrals they were allowed to adorn the facade with their family arms to show the patronage, using the arms of the donor was simply a way to show patronage.


Displaying the arms of founders, patrons or donors on a facade is different from a corporate body (which is what universities are) using the arms on its seal and as part of its corporate identity.

 

James

 
Jay Bohn
 
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Jay Bohn
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25 February 2009 07:00
 

gselvester;66914 wrote:

I wish I had known you were trying this. I live about a ten minute drive away from Rutgers and I know quite a few people who work there who might have been able to get a foot in the door for you. Plus, I speak New Jersean.


In New Jersey we have this thing called the Open Public Records Act that requires Rutgers, as a state entity, to allow inspection and provide copies of public records. If there is still a need to obtain information, I could work on the language of a request and, depending upon the volume of documents responsive to the request (the copy fee is on a per page basis), we could just get the copies or Fr. Guy could inspect the documents and choose a subset for copying.

 
Claus K Berntsen
 
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Claus K Berntsen
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25 February 2009 07:35
 

I’m actually wondering if Rutgers aren’t in violation of International law, which provides protection for State arms, such as the Dutch… Quite possibly also for the Brittish, although they aren’t identical.

 
Nick B II
 
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Nick B II
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25 February 2009 11:34
 

Claus K Berntsen;66945 wrote:

I’m actually wondering if Rutgers aren’t in violation of International law, which provides protection for State arms, such as the Dutch… Quite possibly also for the Brittish, although they aren’t identical.

US Courts don’t recognize international law unless the President wants them to. International law is made up of treaties, enforcement of treaties is with the Executive branch, therefore it’s a breach of Separation of Powers for the Courts to enforce a treaty without the President’s consent.

IIRC Switzerland is an exception. But they have a specific federal law protecting them. Something to do with the Red Cross in the 30s…

 

Besides Rutgers has First Amendment rights too. The British and Dutch only have recourse if Rutgers pretends to be them.

 

Nick

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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25 February 2009 13:03
 

Nick B II;66948 wrote:

US Courts don’t recognize international law unless the President wants them to. International law is made up of treaties, enforcement of treaties is with the Executive branch, therefore it’s a breach of Separation of Powers for the Courts to enforce a treaty without the President’s consent.


Excuse me, Nick, but on what do you base this?

 

I only ask because article VI of the US Constitution says "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

 

The President is obligated by his oath of office to enforce the laws of the United States, which includes treaties.  And in any case he has no necessary role in a civil case that the Government of the Netherlands might choose to bring against Rutgers University (an entity of the State of New Jersey) in US federal court under Article III, section 2.

 
Claus K Berntsen
 
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Claus K Berntsen
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25 February 2009 13:18
 

If my memory serves correctly, State arms are protected under International copyright laws, which are certainly recognized by the US, otherwise they would be in a lot of trouble, regarding copyright…

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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25 February 2009 18:29
 

James Dempster;66941 wrote:

Displaying the arms of founders, patrons or donors on a facade is different from a corporate body (which is what universities are) using the arms on its seal and as part of its corporate identity.

James


Yes, they are separate notions now, personal and corporate arms.  Many colleges adopted arms of their patrons because there would not be confusion with a college using the arms and with a family using them.  This seems to have begun as early as the 13th century, though colleges later deemed it either necessary or useful to obtain their own within the next two centuries.

 

Displaying the arms of the patron of a college is very much akin to those arms on a cathedral.  It is simply to give recognition to the family for their contribution and generosity.  A college of the 13th century is not the legally defined institution of education it is today, and therefore had little need for arms to seal documents themselves.  A college obtained repute from more the founder than the education given.