Today my sister is getting married to Master Sergeant Charles Campbell, USAF.
Here are his arms, as crudely pieced together by me at an earlier date.
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6496/shield01dgj6.png
The central charge is a "celtic dog" as requested by Charles (Chip to his friends), no need to point out difficult this would be to blazon in real life.
Mark, I rather like the Celtic Dog. I could see more of these Celtic charges in ‘Celtic’ people’s arms…like this anyway…of course I’m unabashedly Irish, so….
I was just wondering if it really is supposed to be Argent on Argent (dog on fess)? ‘Cuz I think a color in there would be just fine in keeping the traditional Celtic style relevant and apparent and yet avoid the same metal on metal.
Of course if this was talked about on the prev. MB and I missed it ignore this… :D
Donnchadh wrote:
I was just wondering if it really is supposed to be Argent on Argent (dog on fess)? ‘Cuz I think a color in there would be just fine in keeping the traditional Celtic style relevant and apparent and yet avoid the same metal on metal.
You know, it’s a sticky wicket.
Actually it was supposed to be sable but with my limited graphics capability I essentially just threw my hands in the air in despair and made it argent-ish.
Again, this is just a mock-up.
The craziness with the blazon and the coloring scheme is why I have never moved to do anything with the US heraldivc registry (or another organization). Just too much unsettled, and he is so rarely in the country that it’s hard to have the in depth talk with him on the subject.
If anyone has ay ideas on this subject, by all means feel free to shoot them at me.
Well, while it would certainly make the blazon even tougher, celtic dogs animals like these (zoomorphics) are frequently polychromed. That would make it look better, but as I said, would also make the blazon tough.
Look at this dog:
http://www.ancientstoneart.com/gallery/imagedetail.php?productcode=i12
And here, in upper right corner.
Patrick’s right on that, but I still think you can color this beastie the same manner as any other charge. A good artist will us color scales (as I did with Patrick’s Japanese Fire Dragon where I used a 100%, 90% and 80% Sable). So, this Celtic Dog can certainly be blazoned as Sable and a good artist will recognize that there will be a need for varied hues of Sable along with white and/or gray highlights to make it appear much more visible off of the Argent fess as well as clearer within its own intricacies.
So, I would most certainly make it Sable instead of Argent. I’ve seen some computer graphics designs that use color scale, so even if your brother-in-law did not pay a free-hand artist to render it I think he can find a computer graphics art6ist who could also render it via that medium in color scale.
So, I would blazon it: Gyrony of eight Or and Sable, on a fess Argent a Celtic Dog Sable, in chief a crown pallasade Argent.
I’m just not sure if you’d say Celtic Dog passant, or, stantant, or what. Also Joe or others can correct my blazon errors for the minor stuff and may even know if a Celtic Dog should be blazoned as passant, stantant, etc.—I am assuming it would be the same as other beasties in this category, but I’m not certain…plus I think I misspelled the crown et al…still foggy with new kidney meds, but getting better…
Donnchadh wrote:
I’m just not sure if you’d say Celtic Dog passant, or, stantant, or what.
Maybe celtic dog existant? 
It’s tricky. When you blazon something as ‘celtic dog’, my impression is that you’re probably being a bit too vague, since there is not an established heraldic item called a celtic dog. Am I right on this?
Actually I wanted to get him something with a heraldic connection for the wedding, but this problem of the unsettled design has held me back. And now in a few weeks, he’s off for the middle east again.
The only way to do this within the norms of heraldry is to blazon it as a dog and have it emblazoned in a Celtic style. I would not, however, include all the fretwork characteristic of Celtic manuscript illumination, unless you used it as a kind of diapering filling up the entire fess, and I would suggest that if a Celtic style is used for the dog it should also be used for the rest of the achievement, as a "Celtic dog" looks silly when paired with, say, a 16th century French helmet, etc.
Yes, this is precisely why the creative process has ground to a halt. I think the ‘norms of heraldry’ fall short of describing what the armiger intends here.
A bit more flexibility needed.
why not leave it simply a Celtic dog in the blazon and then whatever artists he may eventually turn to for tattoos, letterheads, banners, etc he can tell that he wants a little less or a little more of the circular/moving fringe normally associated with Celtic illumination as either part of the dog, as it normally would, or as diapering, etc. this way he satisfies the basics of heraldic blazon and keeps the options open for himself and future artists/craftsmen?
Donnchadh wrote:
why not leave it simply a Celtic dog in the blazon and then whatever artists he may eventually turn to for tattoos, letterheads, banners, etc he can tell that he wants a little less or a little more of the circular/moving fringe normally associated with Celtic illumination as either part of the dog, as it normally would, or as diapering, etc. this way he satisfies the basics of heraldic blazon and keeps the options open for himself and future artists/craftsmen?
For the time being, Chip is completely unaware of what a blazon is in the first place. I’m sure he thinks of it more as a personal logo.
We may all debate this, and it does indeed raise some questions about how ‘flexible’ a blazon can be, but until I can corner Chip and have the in-depth discussion I just don’t see this matter being resolved anytime soon.
The problem with "Celtic dog" is that the term is unclear—does it (as you intend) refer to a particular artistic style? or is it a breed of dog (e.g. an Irish wolfhound or some such)? I agree with Joe that it is simply a dog, or perhaps some specified breed of dog (e.g. Irish or Scottish wolfhound) so the artist doesn’t give you a poodle or a dachshund. The same breed of dog, in the same color and position (e.g. passant or whatever) does not become heraldically different based on the particular style of rendition—it could be rendered by e.g. a German or Spanish or Hungarian artist, each in their "national" style, and still be Chip’s arms—though of course Chip himself has the option of always asking various artists to use a celtic style. In twenty or fifty years, Chip Jr. or Chip III might prefer a different style (let’s say they married a Spanish or German or Hungarian girl…) but Chip IV, or Chip III’s younger brother, might just as easily revert to Chip Sr’s preferred style.
This is an important principle, since (among other things) it drives the vetting for duplication. If someone already has similar arms with an Irish wolfhound Sable, merely drawing it in celtic style won’t avoid the duplication—but changing the breed likely would (a terrier does not equal a wolfhound, even if both drawn a la celtique).
An apple pie is an apple pie, whoever may be the cook of the day…of course some will be better cooks than others, but even if their cooking style changes, its still apple pie. A peach pie, on the other hand, isn’t an apple pie no matter how its cooked.
Since we may differentiate between types of sphinx-es and trees, be they fructed or blasted etc.,etc., why not " a dog whose tail terminates in a celtic knot." ?
Stuart wrote:
...why not " a dog whose tail terminates in a celtic knot." ?
If you conduct an image search for "celtic dog" on Google, about 95% of the images are a zoomorphic Celtic dog; about 3% are photos of living dogs; the remaining 2% are mismatched images whose title containg "celtic".
Would this be more explicit: "A Zoomorphic Celtic Dog, its tail terminating in a knot." [The whole more clearly depicted in the margin hereof.]
http://homepage.mac.com/carljohnsen/images/dog.gif
—Guy
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