OK, so I’m getting much better with my kidney meds (a lot faster than the docs thought) and things are looking brighter, so I am going to being to pick back up doing arms.

In addition, however, a professor has advised me I should consider putting together a book(let) on Irish arms and Irish families (like this has never been done before ) using my artwork and 10 plus years of studying Irish surnames and history – she was unaware that there were several different places her own Irish family could have come from and just assumed that everyone with the name ‘O’Neill’ was of the great Ulster clan of the name; turns out her family is from the south and are not in fact of that line at all.

She was impressed and has since advised me that I should take this project up and she could get some help for me in this matter and that it wouldn’t interfere with school work for my degree, as I can self-pace it. Of course I am not sure when this will be complete, but I plan to work on it when not working on school or my online consulting job or my cartooning/photography/heraldry work both of which pay the bills.

So, before I begin to start the artwork and then the meat of the book(let) on the surnames I was wondering if anyone had a preference for style/layout when they read heraldic books as well as those on surnames? If so, please post your ideas.

I plan on citing the AHS and individual people on this for their help in these matters. So, please feel free to fire away with dos and don’ts. For example, do you like to see the arms displayed close to the information on the name, or in a reference section that can be referred to, etc.

Well here’s my thought/suggestion. Maybe make a book of 26 chapters (or 32 if you plan to do northern Ireland as well). Each County could have arms from different families from the area. That way if there are 2 O’Neil’s they will be seperated by county.

Just a thought.

Hi Colin, as an Irishman whose father’s family comes from County Armagh and who is an ardent nationalist (not republican, as that is different within the nationalist community), I will always include all 32 counties; 26 + 6 = 1 for us Irish nationalists.

Interesting idea to break it down into counties. And yes there are several clannads in the great O’Neill clan of Ulster alone, so yes there would be the same name in different counties as they are from different tuaths (large clans) as well as the varying clannads within a clan itself. Good idea to break it down into counties. Thanks.

Maybe you can also include the county arms at the begining of each chapter imo that would look even nicer.

emrys wrote:

Maybe you can also include the county arms at the begining of each chapter imo that would look even nicer.

Yeah I like that idea. You would have CHAPTER 1: County Cork (or whatever) and then the Arms of that county above or below it. On the next page you could start with different clans.

Denny,

Any thought to dividing the book by culture?  Native Irish, Cumbrio-Norman, Scottish, English?  Or, will you just go by county, then alphabetic by name regardless of origin?

In County Waterford you could start with the arms of Robert la Poer: Argent a chief indented Sable.  He (and his two brothers) established the Power lineage in Ireland.

Some (all??) towns have civic coats of arms as well, so you might include them if you have nothing else to do ..... hehehe You’re gonna be busy for a looooooooong time.

Here is the "crest" [sic] of the Co. Waterford town of Lismore:

http://www.waterfordcoco.ie/council/categories/lismoretc/article245/lismore_crest.jpg

—Guy

Cool beans, Denny! Very glad to hear you’re feeling better and interested in your project. I really hate flipping around from descriptions to pictures, so my vote is that the rendering of the achievement be right there with the blazon and any descriptive stuff.

Ton, I hadn’t thought of doing the county arms. I will think on that. Not a bad idea, however, as it would give someone who did some research on their own family to see what their county of origin has for arms; that could give them ideas of what to do about creating their own (we did that with Co, Armagh’s harp in our own arms). The only bad thing is that would add a whole lot more work to the project… good idea however.

Guy, I had been thinking on breaking it down into ethnic origin, but ending before we get to the Anglo-Irish (not the Cambro-Irish a.k.a. Norman-Irish). I was thinking of keeping it to these categories though I could easily break it down even further: Native (Cruithne, Erainn, Laigin, & Gael – these by their existence led me into the Scots, so I think I will include the Scots here although that could easily be broken down into Galloglass Scots and Planter Scots, so I’m not sure how to move forward on that one yet); Norse; and Cambro (Norman [themselves Norsemen], Briton [themselves Celts], Flemish [there is some debate as to the Celtic heritage of these people as well], Welsh [obviously Celts], & English [yes, English, many don’t realize how many Germanic Angles/Saxons came over during and after that invasion and how many of the names of their descendents are considered “Irish” names today just like the others]).

In truth I could go into the Anglo-Irish (Planters, Cromwellian Adventurers, etc) but I think I am going to limit it to the above only because my target audience would primarily be Americans of Diaspora origins, which leaves us with only the previously mentioned peoples.

Thanks Patrick I am feeling better.

I don’t like having to flip around all over the place either. So, I think I will explain that to my professor and make sure she helps me get it to where the drawing is right before the info. I think it would be much easier that way.

Anyway my professor said it should not be a large “scholarly” book with tons of detailed info that would “bore” the average reader. Rather, one that the average person would like to pick up and see the pics and read the info. So, hopefully it turns into only a booklet, but with so much info available on the peoples themselves… well it could really get out of control. Thank God she will help me with it to keep it even-keeled.

Donnchadh wrote:

Thanks Patrick I am feeling better.

I don’t like having to flip around all over the place either. So, I think I will explain that to my professor and make sure she helps me get it to where the drawing is right before the info. I think it would be much easier that way.

 

Anyway my professor said it should not be a large “scholarly” book with tons of detailed info that would “bore” the average reader. Rather, one that the average person would like to pick up and see the pics and read the info. So, hopefully it turns into only a booklet, but with so much info available on the peoples themselves… well it could really get out of control. Thank God she will help me with it to keep it even-keeled.

Denny, then you really need to make a firm decision now about what this booklet is and what it will and will not contain. County arms would be fun, but that’s 32 more renditions you’d have to do and is a booklet of its own. How many hundreds (or thousands) of armigers are there in Eire? How many families are you going to profile and how will you choose them? Perhaps only those families who have had an ancestor who was recognized as chief of name? What kind of accessory information will be included in the booklet? Histories of the families? That’ll be a major sized book. Just the blazon? Who would that interest except heraldists?

Hi Patrick. Goiod questions. Here goes…

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Denny, then you really need to make a firm decision now about what this booklet is and what it will and will not contain.

Agreed. That’s why I’m seeking everyone’s input.

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County arms would be fun, but that’s 32 more renditions you’d have to do and is a booklet of its own.

Actually a little bit more; there are several county arms that are newer and used in place of older ones. Of the older ones most are of important cities/towns in the county, but not all. So, yes, to add the counties would be more to do. Thankfully many of the older ones are easier to do, as they are not so ‘modern’ or cluttered with charges. I’m still 50/50 on this one. I’m thinking of doing the five provinces, which would be easier and serve the same purpose… so…

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How many hundreds (or thousands) of armigers are there in Eire?

I don’t know for certain. However, I suspect that the bulk are Anglo-Irish arms; that is the arms of Planters and Adventurers from Henry VIII onwards – though it did not really begin until under his successors including the Catholic Queen Mary of all people.

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How many families are you going to profile and how will you choose them?

I’m going to use the standard set by the first Chief Herald of Ireland, Dr. Edward MacLysaght. So roughly 243. However, the number will be higher, as for example, the O’Neills of the Northern Ui Neill have three distinct arms for three distinct branches of that clan (O’Neill Mor [Co. Tyrone], O’Neill Clannaboy [Co. Antrim] and O’Neill Fews [Co. Armagh]). And the O’Connors of Connacht have more arms than those of O’Connor Don and O’Connor Sligo; there are arms for O’Connor Roe and O’Connor Glengiven (Coleraine) who are a transplanted clan now mostly found in Ulster, so that would be at least 247 right there and there is more like them.

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Perhaps only those families who have had an ancestor who was recognized as chief of name?

That would be substantially more than the 243 listed above, as the Irish chiefs were recognized and attempts to deal with them politically and then militarily are legend in Irish history. There were many Irish Chiefs and Chieftains that the British recognized, but most of whom sunk into obscurity after agreeing to the ‘surrender and re-grant’ policies and even more due to immigration (expulsion) to the continent where only a handful survive today.

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What kind of accessory information will be included in the booklet? Histories of the families? That’ll be a major sized book.

Yes. Irish Nomenclature is something I’ve been studying for more than 10 years now and is how I first got into heraldry. I have thousands of pages of material I’ve gleaned off of the internet, text books, visits to Ireland, etc. dealing with Irish nomenclature. So having the material is not a problem… trimming it down into reasonable, enjoyable, yet educational levels is going to be the trick.

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Just the blazon? Who would that interest except heraldists?

Nope. That is why I’m going to include a brief history of each clan with the arms once associated with it so to speak. In this regard it will interest, I think, the American-Irishman who wants to know more specific information on the history of his name, the heraldist who may enjoy the armorial displays and hopefully its association with particular people, fans of history in general or Irish history in particular, and hopefully people who are interested in Irish nomenclature. I am thinking this is roughly who would be interested, as my professor falls into one of those categories herself.

As long as you’re considering county breakdowns, you might as well group the counties under their province & include those arms as well.

On the other hand, there is merit to a more or less alphabetical order.

Since one can predict that your book will be consulted by newbies looking for "their" arms, it seems particularly important to do what you can to educate the reader without too much actual "preaching."  One visual way would be to display dissimilar arms for the same name adjacent to each other.

This is a good idea Mike.

In fact it is a must for me that the names be alphabetical and that all names with "O" and "Mac" or as the case may warrant "Mag" (in Irish the prefix is mag instead of mac[/] when followed by a vowel; i.e. MacGoff in English, but Mag Eochadha in Irish) be listed in the "O" and "M" section followed alphabetically by the nest letter. I just hate it when they ignore the "O" and "Mac" of a name…those are integral parts of the name!

If I go by county, or Province, instead of straight out alphabetically I will still be alphabetical in approach. Good idea Mike. Thanks for your input.

If you plan to alphabetize by the "O" or "Mac" prefixes, you might have a one-line listing in the "other" place such as "Niell—see O’Neill" or some such, since many readers may not be aware that their forebears may have dropoed the prefix.

If you plan to alphabetize by the "O" or "Mac" prefixes, you might have a one-line listing in the "other" place such as "Niell—see O’Neill" or some such, since many readers may not be aware that their forebears may have dropoed the prefix.

__________________

Mike~~

Michael F. McCartney

Fremont, California