Montferrato wrote:
“Holder of some bought dignity” sounds grotesque to me, and if a person like that tried to be called Lord or earl in my presence, I would put him straightaway in his place with a quite assertive attitude.
Me, too.
1. The coat of arms displayed in that certification is indeed the coat of arms of Sabino Fernandez-Campo. He is an old general who is a dearest friend of King Juan Carlos. He was made Count of Latores in his retirement. That explains why the king signs the arms. Because he was made noble, and because he is a personal friend of the King, and his nobility title is in the Spanish gazette, the BOE. Floresta was one of the advisors in the design.
2. For all those interested in the owners of the Spanish College of Arms and the Website about titles, I can say that they belong to the brothers Juan M. Castro Valle, and Luis F.Castro Valle, both of them carnal cousins of mine, and dearest friends. We do have business in common, but it is not the SCA or the Nobility titles page. However, I have never denied that I promote the SCA.
3. With respect to Nobility titles, they are indeed brokers in this world, and I keep saying what I said: I do despise bought titles, and my cousins know my opinion very well.
4. I am not my cousins despite I have helped them to make known the SCA. Have I spoken to anyone of the webpage devoted to intermediate to get noble titles? NO. I do not promote that because I personally do not like it. But yes, I like the idea of the SCA, and I will keep promoting it openly.
5. You will not be able to find anything disrespectful, illegal, and even questionable about both enterprises and their owners. There are many skilful people surfing the internet, and with very good skills to play the detective. I do advice them to undertake serious research about them. They will find nothing. Why? Because there is nothing bad to say.
6. Some people who make comments freely have not the courage to give clearly and face to face information about what they do, and who they are, and why they get angry when I mentioned that I disliked bought titles. I would like to ask them why they have that attitude. In fact, some of them are not even members of this society, and have not a public profile. It is easy to make comments that way, behind your computer. The SCA has an e-mail and a postal address. The nobility titles website has an e-mail address. If you want to gather information, write them and ask them to explain themselves. I am not them, but I will keep helping them with the SCA.
7. If someone thinks I am going to shut my mouth, I will not. I have nothing to hide, you are more than welcome to ask me whatever you want, and I am very happy having my opinions.
8. I have indeed achieved my purpose. It was to make known the SCA, and make people clearly aware that there are many options apart from Floresta, who is a dubious character. But he is much better known than me or my family, that’s clear.
9. If someone wants to ask me my full name with all my surnames, my telephone and business telephone, addresses in the UK and Spain, curriculum vitae, people who can give references about me both in Spain and in the UK, and copies of my academic titles, I will be happy to submit that information via fax to anyone interested. Are the ones who try to insinuate that I have hidden intentions going to do the same in public?
10. I keep my sense of humour, and I keep telling all of you that the SCA is a good idea. Why? Because it has a good price, they speak good English, and they are honest dealers and keep their word. I do warn you in a thing against them: they are slow.
11. As I told before, I keep despising bought titles, recommending the services of the SCA, affirming that one should be careful when dealing with Floresta, and being willing to help and give information to anyone.
12. If finally Floresta is appointed Cronista of Spain, I will escape to Scotland, get absolutely pissed, and I will ask information to Duncan about the options for accommodation.
13. I understand that this Thread is being a success, and I will keep waiting for your news. I will also welcome the comments and insinuations of those who do not dare to offer their profiles in public, and I will answer them, because my background and personal history is absolutely impeccable.
14. By the way, we still have a bet, and I want to drink the whisky.
I have reviewed this thread and one of my comments (#1) may have the ring of anger, but I can assure you that it was a normal comment no other things intended.
Taking your point 9. I do would like to see you arms perhaps you can put them up as your avatar ? (pure heraldic intrest nothing else)
Thanks. i will do so very soon.
I do not know much about Spain per se. I do not know much about Spanish nobility per se. I do not know much about Spanish legal practices/situation with regard to heraldry per se. I do not know much about the SCA outside of what has been posted and what I viewed on their page. I do not know Mr. Valle personally, nor Mr. (Dr.) Drake. Indeed there are many things in this life that I do not know.
However, I do know a verbal trashing when I see it – even when veiled. I also know an e-trashing when I see it – even when veiled. And I do know accusation when I see it – even when veiled. I also know a ‘duck’ when I see one. Joe made some great points regarding your assertions on Floresta and you did not respond at all. This combined with your lashing out at the character of another member here without providing facts to support such a trashing makes one think that there is indeed an agenda on your part – even if there isn’t. Indeed this is very bad form overall.
Frankly, good doctor (no disrespect ref my use of good Fr. for Frs. Guy and Archer), you could have gone about this in a much more charitable manner – like PMing Mr. Valle seeking answers to your suspicions and then going public if there was no ‘satisfaction’. If you had suspicions about the person, and or nature, of Mr. Valle and still felt the need to question him publicly you should have had the courtesy to say so bluntly, but charitably, not stealthily and accusatorily. Doing it the way you did undermines what you might be trying to say, which then makes one wonder as to not only the validity of your assertions, but as to the motivations behind it.
All that being said I also find public sale of “nobility” grotesque and I definitely have no desire to seek any sort of fake nobility whatsoever – I’m happy being a simple Colorado Cowboy frankly. And with all due respect to Mr. Valle’s cousin I see little difference in that enterprise (nobility title sales et al) and what some of the cronista’s actions have produced with regard to playing on words to create the illusion of nobility of American armigers with words like ‘lord’ when ‘Mr.’ would have been better. Both are disgusting and shameful IMHO.
I just think in the future it would be best to approach the person privately for clarification. Then when there’s no satisfaction go forward. And when you go forward do not do so stealthily or accusatorily, rather be blunt but respectful… like Joe’s responses to you were.
Just my $.02.
Attention Americans. The following is a Brit expression meaning "to get intoxicated":
Montferrato wrote:
... get absolutely pissed,....
Attention Brits: the above phrase in the US means to become angry.
—Guy
I’d like to take a step back from the heat of this virtual battle & make what I hope are a couple of useful observations:
1) All of this thread is purely personal thoughts, observations, etc. by each individual. None of it, even those posted by officers of the ACH, should be in any way viewed as "official"—& I’m sure Joe etc. would strongly agree. While each individual is of course free to hold, and express, views on the value or validity of foreign (heraldic) affairs—or anything else for that matter—"the opinions expressed are those of the commentators only and do not represent those of the Society or its officers (as such). The Society takes no official position on the legality or validity, under foreign law, of any of this." (paraphrasing a typical TV stations’ intro to infomercials, televangelists, and political ads)
2) If we do have an official view on any of this, IMO it should be that the value in America of any heraldic provider or product, domestic or foreign, official or private, is and must be limited to the quality of the research, design, and artwork; and we retain the right to comment on, and criticize if necessary, these aspects. We also retain the right to disdain any attempt to assert any sort of nobiliary nonsense in an American context. Other countries are of course entitled, within their own sovereignty, to whatever quaint beliefs or practices their laws and traditions may allow, and we may respectfully discuss these quaint notions as subjects of intellectual curiousity. However, just as we should respect their right to their traditions within their own national context, we should be clear that many of those traditions don’t "travel" well (as that term is used in the wine trade). If used in the American context, they would be incompatible with our own quaint republican notions. In short, their writ doesn’t run here any more than ours runs there.
I could blather on, but that’s likely enough for the moment. As interesting as these foreign topics may be - and I’ve enjoyed the thread—I would not like them to consume or ride over our primary focus, in this forum at least, on American heraldry.
Thanks for putting a bit of common sense. I also do not like the sale of titles. Changes in the name of the person running the webpage about brokerage of nobility titles have been made to avoid further confussion.
My cousin Luis the Elder is in Germany at the moment, but he can be reached at any moment in the following e-mail adress: worldnobility@hotmail.com, which is his private e-mail for business transactions and private dealings for the websites concerned. He has authorised me to make it public. ANYONE WISHING INFORMATION, please write him there.
I keep saying that he is honest in the sense that he does not provide biased information and that he keeps his word.He is indeed in the world of titles, and he is there because there are people willing to buy those things. I regret that, but it is a profitable job, and money is a powerful Knight.
Now, because the similarity of the names and the fact that we share more than 20 e-mail adresses, and we run more than one hundred and fifty websites in several languages and countries, some confusions and misundertandings have taken place, and i feel guilty for it. By trying to help him make his place well known, I was too passionate, and some people got angry. I run personally only 42 websites. The others are not mine. But i considered my duty to help and answer for him. He also helped me to sell wine in the UK and Germany. Yes, i can send a a ship full of Rioja to Duncan if i do not win my bet.
I will not speak about it anymore. If someone wants to find out, please write him to his e-mail adress.
But i trust the SCA, and i think it is indeed a good idea. If someone buys something and he gets tricked, i will give him personally his money back by wire transfer or pay pal.
Luis,
Thank you for clarifying the situation regarding the Spanish College of Arms and the organization European Noble Titles in such a detailed way.
I want to try to summarize, to make sure I fully understand.
1. Your cousins Juan M. Castro Valle and Luis F. Castro Valle own the Spanish College of Arms.
2. These same cousins are also brokers associated with European Nobility Titles.
3. You are involved in a number of businesses with your cousins, though not the Spanish College or the Nobility Titles.
4. You run numerous websites with your cousin(s) and share email addresses.
5. You promote the Spanish College, but not the Nobility Titles business.
6. Your name is very similar to theirs, due to cousinage, but different.
If I have incorrectly summarized, please correct.
If you are concerned about my "lack of a public profile" I am certainly willing to point anyone interested, but not good at googling, to appropriate web locations, if they will email me privately. However, this is unlikely to be of much interest, since I am not an expert in such matters, nor profess to be, and am merely a private enthusiast.
Regards,
Charles
Dear Donnchadh,
<<However, I do know a verbal trashing when I see it – even when veiled. I also know an e-trashing when I see it – even when veiled. And I do know accusation when I see it – even when veiled. >>
I think you are inferring something from my post(s) that isn’t there. I merely sought an explanation for an apparent contradiction about the promotion of noble titles in relation to the nascent Spanish College of Heraldry.
<<I also know a ‘duck’ when I see one.>>
On the subject of waterfowl, we have an expression down here in the South, "The goose that’s hit honks the loudest."
<< Joe made some great points regarding your assertions on Floresta and you did not respond at all. >>
You might have missed the sentence by which I conceded on several points. Not only because I am not qualified to argue about Spanish heraldic practice, but also because I know better than to argue with Joseph McMillan. You might know from your own experience how difficult it is to answer Joseph’s points.
<<This combined with your lashing out at the character of another member here without providing facts to support such a trashing makes one think that there is indeed an agenda on your part – even if there isn’t.>>
My only agenda was truth—about the Spanish College of Heraldry and those behind it. I think the discussion has enlightened us all in that regard. After all, that is the topic of this thread.
<<Frankly, good doctor (no disrespect ref my use of good Fr. for Frs. Guy and Archer),>>
I have noticed your frequent use of this adjective with those gentlemen. I have ascribed it to your respect for men of the cloth.
<< you could have gone about this in a much more charitable manner – like PMing Mr. Valle seeking answers to your suspicions and then going public if there was no ‘satisfaction’.>>
The principle you are espousing is a good one, flowing as it does from Mathew’s gospel, Ch. 18. With all due respect, however, this procedure is more applicable to a private misunderstanding. An Internet forum is a public place, and any question or issue, which develops there, is typically handled publicly.
<< If you had suspicions about the person, and or nature, of Mr. Valle and still felt the need to question him publicly you should have had the courtesy to say so bluntly, but charitably, not stealthily and accusatorily.>>
My suspicions were about the Spanish College, not about Mr. Valle personally, which is why I worded my post as I did. I very carefully said that the website of European Nobility Titles "seems to offer the sale of titles over the signature of a person similarly named to you." I asked in this way because I realized the two Luis Valles might not be the same person. I did not wish to make a blunt accusation, only to point out an apparent contradiction, which I hoped could be clarified.
<<Then when there’s no satisfaction go forward. And when you go forward do not do so stealthily or accusatorily, rather be blunt but respectful… like Joe’s responses to you were.>>
Few of us write as cogently as Joseph. You may be attributing to guile that which is actually lack of skill.
Regards,
Charles
Dear Mr Drake:
I have kept providing people with information, and i will not provide you with anymore.
I do not have to explain anything if do not wish so, but i have done it. And i have done it knowing that the explanation could be considered non consistent.
Your summary is correct up to a point and it is written in an ironic style that suits you very much, and explains very well who you are. You first were searching things with a quite malevolent attitude about a member of the society of which you belong as welcome guest. I would call that an exquisite attitude and the behavior of all a gentleman. You maybe a doctor, i will not enquire about it, because your word is sufficient to me. But i am sure you must have some higher degree in good manners.
You could have asked me all that before accusing me and my family, and i would have answered you. But you first went to search privately and on your own initiative things against us on the internet with the malevolent intention to speak about matters and situations that you do not know for sure, and with the final aim of undermining my image and credibility. What worries me is that we never did something to you. Why did you do it? Out of honesty? I wonder what you could do if we had done something to you.
I want to point out a thing. Before the intervention of Charles Drake, this was a forum about heraldry. Now, it is becoming a battlefield.
I will not have that. This discussion, in its current tone is bad, and only will lead to trouble and confussion.
If someone wants explanations, please write to my cousin at the e-mail that i have provided.
I state now that i will not reply anymore to Charles Drake, and i will not post more letters in this thread. It is enough. I did not join this forum to quarrel with members.
This being said, my answer from now on in this particluar thread will be the most absolute silence.
However, if someone wants to approach me personally to have explanations, i will kindly answer questions in the following e-mail adress: montferrato@hotmail.com
Thanks
Very truly yours,
Please gentlemen…we all know that the only legitimate titles of nobility in America are granted by the Carolina Herald, Laurence Cromp, Esq.
http://www.sc.edu/library/socar/uscs/1993/cromp93.html
Why, as I write this very post I am wearing my "Robes of Scarlet Interlaced with Gold."
-Ben Foster, Landgrave of Carolina
How did such an informative and usefull thread tranform into this? I may very well be a new member, but those posts by Drake were highly uncalled for and I feel a public apology should be issued. Calling Montferatto’s motives into question was very bad form indeed. I found this thread initially to be extremely helpful in my own personal quest for a Spanish Grant/Registration, now I find it shameful. This is certainly not how educated, professional gentlemen behave.
Andrew J Vidal wrote:
How did such an informative and usefull thread tranform into this? ... I found this thread initially to be extremely helpful in my own personal quest for a Spanish Grant/Registration, now I find it shameful.
Concurred. Never thought I’d say this, but I think it’s time for the powers that be to interevene in this thread or kill it.
Here is another early example of one of Floresta’s certificates, for those who have not seen it before:
http://www.sainty.org/images/guysparm.jpg
http://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/Floresta-confirm-lastpage.jpg
