Thiere may of course be contrary opinions, but IMO the most that an American heir of one of these titles could fairly say is that he is the heir, or a descendant, etc., of Landgrave Such-&-such. The arms, however, IMO would continue since in the Ameruican context they are no longer (and cannot be) "tied" to the title. It would IMO be debatable whether or not they should still be borne on the face of the sun by the modern descendant—I would think not—but could still be displayed in that form if identified as "the arms of my ancestor, Landgrave So-&-so…"
There are two reasons I believed the titles lapsed:
1. I think that when the political entity under which the titles were established ceased to exist, the titles also ceased to exist. I think an argument could be made that such was the case when the proprietary charter was surrendered, but it would probably be necessary to see the documents by which the Crown took over the colonies (excluding the Granville portion of NC).
I’m not sure, but I do not believe this would be true unless the documents specifically called for this to happen. There are numerous instances in International Law of titles which exist even though the political entity no longer exists. The Holy Roman Empire and the French monarchy are two notable examples. However, this raises the often-debated question of what meaning such a title has, if there are no accompanying privileges, and if, in fact, there is any substance to a title without powers.
The creating entity was ultimately the English monarchy, I think, and this entity had the power to undo what it did.
It seems clear from the Fundamental Constitution, however, that these titles were basically feudal, and so the title would only exist in connection with the land.
2. If the titles survived the transition, they could, it seems to me, only be borne so long as the landgrave or cassique continued to abide by the terms under which they were granted.
I would contend that the moment one of the landgraves or cassiques sold an acre of one of the seignories or baronies attached to his title, the title disappeared, as he had violated the condition under which it was granted.
Might it not also be true that instead of voiding the title, the constitution just voided the sale, meaning that in terms of the letters patent, the landgrave’s proper heir still "owns" the barony?
If there were any future in the study of feudal land law in the US, this might be a good topic for an LL.M. thesis.
A fascinating project, but as you say of limited value!
Michael F. McCartney wrote:
It would IMO be debatable whether or not they should still be borne on the face of the sun by the modern descendant—I would think not—but could still be displayed in nhat form if identified as "the arms of my ancestor, Landgrave So-&-so…"
What about on a blue sun rather than a red one?
Charles, you’ve spent too much time reading Innes!
Is this anything?
Is this anything?
Seb’s url wrote:
Map showing the location and boundaries of the barony called Winyaw Barnoy on the south side of Winyah Bay in South Carolina : granted 18th June, 1711, to Landgrave Robert Daniel for 12,000 acres and by him transferred on 19th June, 1711, to Landgrave Thomas Smith with sketch division lines and with some adjoining plantations and settlements
by Henry A M Smith
Looks like Landgrave Daniel was "King for a day". I wonder if the entire 12,000 acres were passed to Landgrave Smith?
According to David Ramsay, Ramsay’s History of South Carolina: From Its First Settlement in 1670 to the Year 1808 (Newberry, SC: 1858), p. 25:
"If the proprietary government had continued, the title, honours, emoluments and lands derived from this patent [the patent creating Thomas Smith a landgrave on 13 May 1691] would now be possessed by Thomas Smith, son of Henry, who is the lineal heir of the original Thomas Smith. Such have been the changes which, in the course of a little more than a century, have taken place, that this is the only known instance in which any one of Mr. Locke’s Carolina nobility can trace back his pedigree to the original founder."
Ramsay’s statement "if the proprietary government had continued," suggests that the titles, honors, etc., did not survive the end of proprietary government. I’m still looking to see what royal or other documents said in connection with the suppression of the Fundamental Constitutions that set up the system of nobility.
Joseph McMillan wrote:
...[the patent creating Thomas Smith a landgrave on 13 May 1691]
Aaaahhh ... I see now; Smith was a Landgrave before he received the 12,000 acres from Landgrave Daniels.
Ramsay’s statement "if the proprietary government had continued," suggests that the titles, honors, etc., did not survive the end of proprietary government.
Yes, it does begin to sound that way. Oh well ... at least Mr. Smith (and his descendants) has (have) some interesting "bragging rights".
I’m still looking to see what royal or other documents said in connection with the suppression of the Fundamental Constitutions that set up the system of nobility.
Thanks for the scholarly research—your results will be well received regardless of legal outcome.
Try this site:
This is the website of The Heirs of Hereditary Landgraves and Cassiques Society of South Carolina.
I’m sure they could provide you with much more historical info.
Patrick Williams wrote:
...This is the website of The Heirs of Hereditary Landgraves and Cassiques Society of South Carolina.
I’m sure they could provide you with much more historical info.
I’d feel more confident in their ability to provide information IF any of the links worked.
Oh, sure, Guy, you want everything: a website with links that work. Lad-de-dah.
I do not recall which one, nor understood the reason why; but one South Carolina Landgrave title was created by the King of England, not the Proprietors. Some titles seemed to have been created and the document send from England; however somebody with authority (forget who) was sent to South Carolina with blank forms, and the seeming power to award them in the colony? Many Landgraves and Cassiques seem never to have arrived at their South Carolina Baronies, from England. Their descendants are more likely to be found in England, rather than in today’s United States. focusoninfinity
Several "archived" years of the defunct Landgraves website are available; but alas, I forget the link? focusoninfinity
Thomas Amy, Esq., Cassique, Created 1682
Gov. Edmund Andros, Landgrave, Created 1694
Gov. John Archdale, Landgrave, Created 1694
Christopher Arthur, Esq., Landgrave/Cassique?, Createdc1724, Cypress Barony
John Ashby, Esq., Cassique, Created 1682, Yadhaw Barony
Hon. Daniel Axtell, Sr., Landgrave, Created 1681
Hon. Holland Axtell, Landgrave, Created 1692
Lady Rebecca Pratt Axtel, Landgravine?, Newington Barony
John Bailey, Esq., Landgrave, Created 1682, Otter Barony
John Bayley, Esq., Landgrave/Cassique?, 16,200a Hilton Head Island* Barony
Atty-Gen & Surv-Gen Sir Edmund Bellinger, Sr., Landgrave, Created 1698, Tombodly & Ashepoo Baronies (master of Blake with 1st cattle to S.C.)
Edmund Bellinger, Jr, Esq., Landgrave, Inherited c1705
Sir Edmund Bellinger, III, Landgrave, Inherited 1739
Edmund Bellinger, IV, Landgrave, Inherited 1772
Joseph Bellinger, Landgrave, Inherited 1773
Thomas Bellinger, Landgrave, Inherited
Col. Edward Berkerley (fictional), Cassique, "Created" c1684, Kiawah (fictional) Barony
Daniel Blake, Esq., Landgrave?, Inherited? c1751
Gov. & Gen. Joseph Blake, Sr., Landgrave, Created 1696, Plainfield Barony
Col. Joseph Blake, Jr., Inherited c1700
Hon. James Carteret, Landgraved, Created 1670
Hon. John (Carteret?), Landgrave, Created c1718, Hobcaw Barony
Gov. James Colleton, Landgrave, Created 1670/71, Wadboo Barony
Sir John Colleton, Landgrave?, Devil’s Elbow Barony
Sir Peter Colleton, Landgrave, Fairlawn Barony
Hon. Thomas Colleton, Sr., Landgrave, Created 1681, Cypress Barony
Hon. William Craven, Landgrave & Cassique
Lawrence Cromp, Esq., Landgrave/Cassique?
DptyGov. Robert Daniell, Landgrave, Created c1711, Winyah Barony
Dr. Christopher Dominick, Cassique
John Ely, Esq., Landgrave?
John Ffoster, Esq.,Cassique, Created c1677/78
John Gibbs, Esq., Cassique, Created 1682
Hon. James Griffths, Landgrave, Created 1707, Port Royal Barony
Hon. ???? Griffiths, Landgrave, Inherited p1707 (father of James Griffiths)
Hon. William Hodgson, Landgrave & Cassique
John Hodgeson, Esq., Landgrave/Cassique?
Col. Samuel Horsey, Landgrave
Lady Mary Ketelby Johnston, Landgravine?, Inherited?
Gov. Robert Johnston, Landgrave?
Gov. Sir Nathaniel Johnson, Landgrave & Cassique, Created 1686
Edward Jewkes, Esq., Landgrave
Hon. Abel Ketelby, Sr., Lanbdgrave, Created 1708/09
Gov. Sir Richard Kyrle, Landgrave, Created 1684
Hon. John Locke, Landgrave, Created 1671
Gov. Philip Ludwell, Cassique
John Monke, Esq., Created 1682/83
Gov. James Moore, Landgrave
Gov. Joseph Moore, Landgrave
Hon. Joseph Morton, I, Landgrave, Created 1681
Hon. Joseph Morton, II, Landgrave
Joseph Pendarvis, Esq., xLandgravex (incorrectly attributed Landgrave)
Col. Andrew Percival, Landgrave?, Created c1677
Spencer Percival, Esq., Landgrave/Cassique?
Gov. John Price, Landgrave
Maj. Thomas Rowe, Cassique, Created 1682
Lady Staira Elizabeth Farquarson Johnston Rundell, Landgravine?, Inherited?
Henry Smith, Esq., Landgraved, Inherited
John Smith, Esq., Cassique, Created 1682, Boo-shoo-ee Barony
Col. Joseph Smith, Landgrave, Inherited, Wiskinboo Barony
Gov. Thomas Smith, Jr., Landgrave & Cassique
Hon. Thomas Smith, III, Landgrave
Gov. Seth Sothell, Landgrave (suspended)
Hon. Joseph West, Landgrave, Created 1684
Capt. Henry Wilkinson, Cassique, Created 1681
Edward Willimot, Esq., Landgrave (suspended?)
Lady Elizabeth Bellinger Wright, Landgravine?, Inherited?
John Wynch, Esq., Landgraved, Created p1701
Gov. (Sir?) John Yeamans, Landgrave, Created 1671
This poster, focusoninfinity, created an earlier simuliar list for additions and corrections, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiques .
*focusoninfinity descends Edward Hilton, Sr., Esq. (lawyer) of Exeter, N.H., the brother of Capt. William Hilton, Jr., for whom Hilton Head Island is named. The brothers are the sons of explorer Capt. William and Ellen Mainwaring Hilton. Edward Hilton, Sr., wed the widow Mrs. Catherine Shapleigh Treworgye, the sister of Capt. Nicholaus Shapleigh, early chartmaker of the Cape Fear River that in the 1660’s, Capt. Wm. Hilton, Jr., "purchased" and named. focusoninfinity also descends Capt. Edmund Bellinger, Sr., Landgrave, and wife Sarah Cartwright, by son Capt. William Bellinger, Sr., and wife Mary Cantey (daughter of William Cantey and wife Jane Baker, daughter of Richard and Elizabeth Wilson Baker. Mrs. Mary Cantey Bellinger had Elizabeth Bellinger who wed the Hon. Henry Yionge, Sr., Loyalist, H.M. Surv-Gen of Georgia, who called his 2nd wife Christiana Bulloch ‘a rebel’; she being the daughter of Patriot Gov. Archie Bulloch of Ga. Mrs. Elizabeth Bellinger Yonge had my ancestor Capt. Philip Yonge, Loyalist, H.M. Surv-Gen of Ga., who wed Christian Mackenzie, the daughter of Capt. William Mackenzie, in 1775, H.M. Comptroller and Collector of Customs, Sunbury, Ga. His brother George, Third Earl Cromartie, of Cromarty, Scotland; his daughter wed Arthur Middlington, Signer. Philip’s brother was Maj. Henry Yonge, Jr., H.M. Atty-Gen of British East Florida.
The United Umpire Loyalist charter of Canada, said it was for Loyalist descendants who "reached British Controlled territory". The Yonges reached both British East Florida, and the father went on to die in England. But the UDC rejected those ancestors as not reaching "British controlled territory". Henry Jr., as H.M. Atty-Gen, freed the enslaved New Smyrna Beach Minorcans and commanded a Loyalist company of them at St. Augustine, Fla., rebuilt a fort, and commanded a Loyalist regiment—but never made it to Canada. Not good enough Loyalist, they; in some Canadian eyes?
Based on the above, it seems to me that the Landgrave title could not be inherited by a female after 1701, but likely could be inherited by a female prior to 1701?Post 1701 a Landgravine could only will jt to a male, or sell it to a male, or sell or will the lands only, sans title, to a female. Prior to 1701 I’ve never heard of a female originally "created" a Landgtave or Cassique. At a British museum or library website, I once saw the original documents kept there that detailed the complication creation ceremony, garments, etc., and Latin motto. However I know of not Landgrave or Cassique who actually went through such silly drama that I love.
Attn. Member Ben Fostner; thought you might find this of interest? I do not know the name nor location in South Carolina, of Mr. Ffoster’s Barony? Jim Miller