OK, most of us know that in Ireland one has the option of using a mantling that is gules, doubled argent, instead of the liveries. I think we all know why that option is available.
My question, however, is does it extend to the wreath as well? At first thought I wouldn’t think so. However, a review of the arms available from the site that shows some of the grants where the mantling is gules, doubled argent, is also a wreath of argent and gules when that is clearly not the liveries, which makes me think it is possible with the Phríomh-Aralt na hÉireann (CHoI).
Examples of Irish grants of arms that use the argent and gules wreath along with the mantling instead of the liveries on the wreath and the argent and gules mantling.
Daniel Cantwell of Waterford (2002)
Frank Carr of Como, Western Australia (2001)
Kevin George Mason of Tennessee, USA (2001)
So, does this mean that the Phríomh-Aralt na hÉireann (CHoI) and his office allows for the wreaths to be either of the liveries, or, of the argent and gules variety alongside the gules, doubled argent, mantling option?
Does anyone know for sure or at least have a good guess?
8)
No idea about the other two, but gules and argent are the livery colors for the Como grant. The blazon begins "Per cross gules and argent…"
You’re right Joe. I was seeing the quartered coat and thinking of the first quarter being gules and or. I didn’t even think that it was written out differently. I was thinking Quarterly 1 & 4 Gules, a sun in its splendor or; 2 & 3, Argent, a lymphad oars extended sable; over all a Maltese cross counterchanged for Carr (2001).
Anyone have any ideas on the other two?
I mean the one is Gules, between four rings a mullet Or, a canton ermine for Cantwell (2002) and Azure, a double headed lion rampant Argent, armed and langued Gules, over all a chevron inverted Or for Mason (2001).
I’m wondering if they are simply errors, or, if this is policy to allow it, or what.
Dennis,
From what I recall, liveries are not necessarily the metal & color of the shield—although I think the majority follow that guideline. My dad’s shield is mainly Argent and Sable (and so are his liveries), but I suppose he could have requested a torse Argent & Gules and a mantle Gules doubled Argent.
—Guy
Thanks Guy. I’m a little confussed, however.
Wouldn’t your dad’s liveries be argent and sable becaue the field is argent and the first charge is a chief indented sable and the weapons are secondary charges? Or am I misunderstanding it all?
With reference to the post immediately above this one, the answere is:
No, because the Chief is not the main charge as it’s an ordinary which comes after the main field, then the main charge upon that field - the Chief and its contents come after the field and what it contains.
With reference to ‘Liveries’ and ‘Colours’:-
The ‘colours’ and the ‘livery colours’ are not necessarily the same thing. In standards you can quite often find the livery colours and they quite often are not what are considered to be the ‘heraldic’ colours.
When one refers to just ‘the colours’ one is referring to the principal metal and colour mentioned in the blazon, and a ‘wreath of the colours’ is composed of just these.
However, ‘livery colours’ were those in which retainers of a notable were clothed - sometimes they were the principal metal and colour, but from medieval times they began to clothe their minions in materials that were a variation of the basic heraldic colour. For instance, Gules in the arms resulted in anything from cherry to chocolate as the livery colour and anything from brown to buff representing the heraldic metal Or. Scarlet as a livery colour was reserved for retainers and servants of royalty.
Current regulated heraldic practice has become more permissive and one can now find modern grants of arms sporting torses with more than just one metal and one colour, and the same with mantlings, but the tradition of having the metal/s as the doubling is still strictly adhered to.
Dennis,
I think you’ll get the answer you’re looking for by asking the question to the Office of the Chief Herald. They are very friendly and usually quite quick to reply. The email listed on their website is: herald@nli.ie
If you decide to ask them, please let us know! 
Thanks for clearing that up Geoff. I think I’m leaning towards agreeing with Joe in as much as I’m coming away with a different opinion of Fox-Davies. Now this may be exactly what he said in my book, but it is not the impression I came away with. Of course it could be the reader and not the author.
Dennis,
Off Topic—- I really like your badge! Is the horseshoe because you are a self-proclaimed "Colorado Cowboy"?
—Guy
Thanks Guy. Yep. The cross fleury is for my Catholic faith and my devotion to the BVM. The horseshoe is for my love of ridding and horses in general - happens when you ar a Colorado Cowboy 
- and is read because that is the color of native Colorado dirt and our state’s name, which is suppossedly Spanish, does have red in it - again a play on Colorado Cowboy.
Update: I got a form reply that the question would be reviewed and responded to ASAP. So, I’ll let y’all know as soon as I hear back from them.
***update*** Here is the email, which finally came today, from the office of the CHoI. I am let down, as the bulk of it talks about mantling of gules doubled argent, which I already knew and was not my question. Further Mr. Ó Comáin’s “I do not consider it a matter of much importance” is a bit flippant, if not in your face. I mean if this is the way you finish a response to someone who had an honest question for ya, why bother? Strange…
Quote:
Your enquiry has been passed to me by the Chief Herald for attention.
* ‘Gules doubled argent’ is the default colouring of mantlings in this Office. As you may be aware, in the early days of heraldry mantlings were
usually represented in the principal tinctures of the arms. Later there was a period during which there was a fashion for gules and argent. When the fashion passed in England it remained the practice here and does so to the present.
That said, there is no objection to the use of the main colour and metal of the shield being used should the grantee so wish. It is simply a matter of
individual taste.
* The torse is usually the main colour and metal of the shield but odd examples of gules and argent, matching the mantling, are to be found. I do not consider it a matter of much importance.
I hope that this is of use to you.
Micheál Ó Comáin
Herald of Arms
I think you misunderstand the intention of Mr. O Comain’s comment. I don’t believe he’s being flippant, but simply saying that whether or not the torse matches the arms or the mantling is not important. In other words, if someone wants the torse not to match, that’s OK.
I read the comments the same as Joe.
Hugh Brady wrote:
I read the comments the same as Joe.
Same here. I don’t think there was any disrespect intended.
Yeah, me too. I think you’re wrong on that. He wasn’t being flip. He was simply saying that it’s OK either way.