The description of the vessel’s coat of arms clearly states that the piles are ‘light blue’ so ‘bleu celeste’ it is.
Thank you, Joseph.
Regards,
Iain Boyd
The TIOH now have a section with Ship’s CoA: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Navy/NavyMain2.htm but they call them crests!
The USS cardinal seems to have a mistake.. shouldn’t the shiled blazon say ARGENT… instead of OR,...?
I was surprised to see a USS Winston Churchill. Any other US naval ships named after foreign leaders?
Nope, not at present. In the very early navy there was a ship named the Alfred, named after King Alfred the Great, and there have been one or two named after the French admiral, the Comte de Grasse, who commanded the French naval squadron at the Battle of Yorktown. I can’t think of any others.
The latest USS Comte de Grasse was a Spruance-class destroyer DD-974 decommissioned 5 june 1998. She was sunk as a target 7 June 2006.
arriano wrote:
I was surprised to see a USS Winston Churchill.
The arms born by the ship are clearly at least related to Sir Winston’s own arms… but that begs the question: what is the difference between "per fes enhanced" and "chief"
Does anyone know if there is a set of rules governing the assignment of swords and things as "supporters" in the case of US Navy vessels… as in the Oscar Austin, Mustin and Donald Cook?
ESmith wrote:
Does anyone know if there is a set of rules governing the assignment of swords and things as "supporters" in the case of US Navy vessels… as in the Oscar Austin, Mustin and Donald Cook?
I’m not sure there are rules as to particular ships being entitled or not, but the different designs of the swords have symbolism of their own.
The sword with the straight blade, usually shown with the gold hilt and guard, is the naval officer’s dress sword. It is used to symbolize a commissioned officer.
The one all in steel color with a basket hilt and curved blade is a cutlass. It was a fighting weapon normally used by petty officers and is used to symbolize enlisted personnel.
The one with the curved blade and white curved grip, with no guard, is the Marine officer’s "Mameluke" saber. It is used to symbolize the Marine Corps.
Thus, if you see crossed Naval officer and Mameluke swords, it usually means either that person the ship is named for was a Marine or that the ship itself is an amphibious vessel, whose purpose is to carry Marines. Crossed officer’s sword and cutlass is simply a symbol of the Navy as a whole. USS Mustin has four officer’s swords to symbolize the four officers that the family provided to the navy over three generations.
I’m a little puzzled by the choice of weapons for USS Oscar Austin. As Austin was an enlisted Marine, I would have expected a crossed cutlass and Marine NCO’s sword, not the Mameluke and Naval officer’s saber.
According to the text on the TIOH website the Mameluke is to represent the Marine status of Oscar Austin. The naval sword in the constext is to represent cooperation between the Navy and the Marine Corps.
This must be where American heraldry has departed from that of the rest of the world as I never would have described the cross swords behind the shield a supporters. To me they are simply external decorations that should be blazoned as such. On the technical side, some of the swords might be more correctly described as follows: M1860 Naval Cutlass, M1852 Naval Officer’s Sword and M1859 USMC NCO’s Sword.
I agree that they aren’t really supporters but rather accessories or some such.
Not sure it’s necessary to blazon them with the full nomenclature—US naval officer’s sword, cutlass, USMC Mameluke saber, and USMC NCO’s sword would seem to suffice (although, yes, a weapon collector might well ask which model of officer’s sword, or whatever, should be used).
My point about the sword for Oscar Austin was not that he wasn’t a Marine, but that he wasn’t an officer. He was a private, who wouldn’t normally carry a sword on parade, but the NCO’s sword would at least be more appropriate than the officer’s Mameluke saber.
So, would it be the crossed swords behind, as they appear more like other items placed in saltire behind a shield that is weird, or is it inanimate object used as supporters that’s weird?
If the former I agree, as I’d think more of devices of office, but that’s my heraldic bias coming through. If the later I disagree, as the pillars in the Spanish King’s arms and the lymphad in Campbell’s arms, and the tree in…oh God…who the heck was that…anyway he was either British or Irish…I can’t remember now…arms come to mind of such charges; OK the tree is at least alive, so I give you that one…but…you know what I mean.
I’m just curious and mean no offense…
ESmith wrote:
The arms born by the ship are clearly at least related to Sir Winston’s own arms… but that begs the question: what is the difference between "per fes enhanced" and "chief"
I would think that "per fess enhanced" has the fess line lower than the bottom line of a chief. My guess is that it would be somewhere around midway between a regular "per fess" and the bottom line of a chief, but I’ve never read anything authoritative about this, just from the examples I’ve seen…
Donnchadh wrote:
So, would it be the crossed swords behind, as they appear more like other items placed in saltire behind a shield that is weird, or is it inanimate object used as supporters that’s weird?
If the former I agree, as I’d think more of devices of office, but that’s my heraldic bias coming through. If the later I disagree, as the pillars in the Spanish King’s arms and the lymphad in Campbell’s arms, and the tree in…oh God…who the heck was that…anyway he was either British or Irish…I can’t remember now…arms come to mind of such charges; OK the tree is at least alive, so I give you that one…but…you know what I mean.
I’m just curious and mean no offense…
And there are garbs as supporters in the arms of Lord Boyd-Orr, and, and, and. It’s the position that makes them not supporters rather than that they’re inanimate—things in saltire behind the shield are pretty much not going to be supporters whereas on either side they are (there are rare occasions of mere badges being used this way), and sometimes there’s a single supporter (usually some type of bird though it need not be) behind the shield.
