Something I came across:the website of the Association of Nobles in Austria

http://www.edelleute.at/enindex.html

go to the little shield on the left and lists of noble families of those regions will appear, some have pictures of their arms.

very cool. thanks ton.

i found the O’Donnell of Tyrconnell arms. very interesting. i see the marshalling of the HRE arms and can understand that. however, i am wondering as to the reason for the differencing of the arms of O’Donnell. i understand the reasons for differencing as a general rule, but wonder what went into the decisions to alter the arms so much so given their very close connection to the senior - chiefly - line… anyone know?

it is interesting to note that these O’Donnells are in fact second in line from the chiefship after the Spanish line, which is heir to the good Father Aeodh (Hugh) O’Donnell, O.F.M. a missionary priest in Zimbabwe passes on to his eternal reward. He has only a sister, but she does have a son, but the previous CHofI have ruled that their line [of Dublin] would not be eligible for inheritance because she is a female and Irish chiefships always passed in male descent etc. So, failing the Spanish line, which is doubtful as the heir is a duke and he has three sons I believe, the Austrian O’Donnells would become chiefs.

to see the O’Donnell arms go to Herzogtum Krain (last one on second row) and scroll down to the “O” section.

From Erin’s Blood Royal; The Gaelic Noble Dynasties of Ireland, by Peter Beresford Ellis
Quote:

Many O’Donnells fled abroad in what became known as the Flight of the Wild Geese. Major General Henry, Count O’Donnell, was founder of an Austrian branch of the family. His eldest son, Count Joseph (1755-1810), became Finance Minister to the Austrian Government, steering Austria to economic recovery after Napoleon’s victory changed the Holy Roman Empire into the Austrian Empire. His son, Joseph was Minister of Finance to Emperor Francis II; his second son, Field Marshal Count Maurice O’Donnell (b. 1780), was father to the famous Major General Maximilian, Count O’Donnell, aide-de-camp to the Emperor Franz Josef, whom he saved from assassination in 1853. The Austrian Counts O’Donnell von Tirconnell are a continuing line in modern Austria.

The line of cheifship goes from Athair (Father) Ambrose (religious name) Aeodh (his native name, which is Hugh in English) O’Donel, O.F.M., missionary priest in Zimbabwe, Chief of Clan O’Donnell, simply known in Irish as O’Donnell to the Spanish line.

Next in line is the family of Don Leopoldo O’Donnell, Duque de Tetuan, Marques de las Salinas, Visconde de Aliaga; and his son is Don Hugo O’Donnell, Duque de Estrada, Marquez de Altamira, Conde de Lucena.

Then next in line is the Austrian Counts O’Donnell of Tirconnell.

"Association of Nobles in Austria" ?  Please update my understanding of the status of the Nobility in Austria.  My impression was that the Austrian Constitution after WWI prohibited both monarchy and nobility and that the claim to nobility or royality was strictly outlawed.

Edward Wenzl wrote:

"Association of Nobles in Austria" ? Please update my understanding of the status of the Nobility in Austria. My impression was that the Austrian Constitution after WWI prohibited both monarchy and nobility and that the claim to nobility or royality was strictly outlawed.

You are right, officially these people are only known with their family name not the title but these families do know which titles belong to which family and it is not forbidden in Austria to set up an association which deals with these historic things. If you ask me the Austrians probably should change to the German model where the title is a part of the name.

since the Austrians and Germans are so closely akin to each other i wonder why they wouldn’t? is there a cultural reason?

Donnchadh wrote:

since the Austrians and Germans are so closely akin to each other i wonder why they wouldn’t? is there a cultural reason?

Probably historical reasons, I guess the new Austrian Republic felt more insecure about its popular support. I also think the Allies in the peace treaty obliged the Austrians to prevent a Habsburg restoration. I know that the Hungarians where forced to deny the former Emperor and king of Hungary Karl to resume his Hungarian throne, this according to the peace treaty. Thus was created a Kingdom whitout a King.

why would we allies do that? i mean the UK was an ally ... they are a monarchy ... why wouldn’t they object to such restrictions? and frankly who the heck is the USA or her allies to dictate the people can not go back to a monarchical system if that is what they wanted?

*note - it is not often at all that I publicly question my nations endeavors but this restriction seems unfair and undemocratic and therefore un-American to me ... but what the heck do i know i guess…

Well, Dennis, this Monarchy was the one that sided with Germany, the Ottoman Empire and Bulgaria against the allies. I can see why they might view them as hostile.

Besides, many WW1 central powers propoganda pics I have seen showed the symbolic Germanic union of Hohenzollern and Hapsburg.

Maybe they also didn’t want anything that could become a rallying point for neo-Teutonic nationalism. (didn’t stop Hitler from entering the picture, though)

I’m not sure Marcus’s understanding is correct.  I just scanned the texts of the peace treaties with Austria (Treaty of St-Germain-en-Laye) and Hungary (Treaty of Trianon) and see nothing restricting either countries internal political arrangements, although both treaties made clear that the Austro-Hungarian Empire was permanently dissolved.  It’s true that the allies insisted that the country be termed in the treaty "Republic of Austria," but the alternative was not "Kingdom" or "Empire" but "German-Austria."  There was a sentence in the Austrian provisional constitution that referred to "German-Austria" as part of the "German Reich," and the allies were not willing to accept the implication of unification of former Germany and the German-speaking areas of Austria.  It was the 1919 Austrian constitution that abolished the nobility, by the way, well before the peace treaty was signed.

An internal revolution ousted Emperor Karl I in Austria and Hungary in 1918, and although the Hungarian post-war constitution stipulated that the country was a monarchy, no monarch was ever chosen, and the regent (Admiral Horthy) explicitly ruled out the former emperor.  Some argue that it was because of British opposition to a Hapsburg restoration; I don’t know.