Cinematic Heraldry

 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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04 November 2009 18:37
 

John Mck;73150 wrote:

I’m sure some of us recognize that as the Codex Manesse. In grad school I was lucky enough to get my hands on a masterful German faksimile copy. for an afternoon Is anyone aware of a modern, affordable reproduction of the plates?


http://diglit.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/

Click the links under "Inhalt" [contents].

 

It’s FREEEEEEEEEE

 

—Guy

 
John Mck
 
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John Mck
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04 November 2009 20:52
 

Guy Power;73152 wrote:

http://diglit.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/

Click the links under "Inhalt" [contents].

It’s FREEEEEEEEEE

 

—Guy


I’d pay more for a professionally offset-printed version ;P

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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04 November 2009 21:24
 

Joseph McMillan;73139 wrote:

NO, DAMMIT! Please quit putting words in my mouth. I know this isn’t a very civil response, but it’s impossible to have a civil discussion if you’re going to keep twisting my words.


I never said "that commoners weren’t yet using heraldry in 1327".  I actually said, "again, am not saying there was no heraldry for commoners", and the reason I used the word ‘again’ was because before that I said, "but I am not suggesting there was not heraldry".  Perhaps you should be careful of accusing people of the things you do yourself.

 

But, it turns out there was heraldry in the film.  In a manuscript that the religious order made.  Surely it depicts the arms of all the local commoners and only the local commoners in it.  Surely.  And given so many commoners with arms, I guess you are right that there was not more.  You would think the commoners would done their 50,000 ducat armaments and parade through the street displaying their arms on their silken banners and standards that they commissioned from the most skilled of craftsman and past homes that have been adorned with marble carvings of the family’s coat of arms.  Seems so logical a choice now, given that commoners are the poorest people in a realm.  So I concede.  They should have done that, because that would have been an excellent opportunity to include heraldry, yes.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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04 November 2009 21:25
 

In posting #34 (give or take) David included a link to his blog; & the blog entry fot (IIRC) 11/2, criticized the new logo of a college in North Carolina or thereabouts, which I tried to post here but couldn’t.

The design was, more or less a series of diagonal zig-zags that I wouldn’t attempt to blazon.  However, FWIW, it did remind me of an historical example of the arms of the Prince of Transylvania on the grant of arms to Capt. John Smith—then an adventurer (mercenary) serving against the Turks, & later the military leader of the English settlement at Jamestown in Virginia.  (IIRC this was illustrated in the Oxford Book of Heraldry)

 

My impression—but only that—was that the design may have represented the teeth of a wild beast of prey—likely a wolf, given the Balkan venue.

 

Perhaps not great heraldic art but heraldic nonetheless.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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04 November 2009 23:28
 

xanderliptak;73163 wrote:

I never said "that commoners weren’t yet using heraldry in 1327".


Nice try. Too bad for you that the forum provides a very nice record of the postings, so that everyone can go back to post #61 in this thread in which you said, and I quote:

 

"Wikipedia says the movie is set in 1327, and coats of arms were being used mainly by noble families, and not yet by commoners."

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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04 November 2009 23:41
 

Michael F. McCartney;73164 wrote:

The design was, more or less a series of diagonal zig-zags that I wouldn’t attempt to blazon. However, FWIW, it did remind me of an historical example of the arms of the Prince of Transylvania on the grant of arms to Capt. John Smith—then an adventurer (mercenary) serving against the Turks, & later the military leader of the English settlement at Jamestown in Virginia. (IIRC this was illustrated in the Oxford Book of Heraldry)

My impression—but only that—was that the design may have represented the teeth of a wild beast of prey—likely a wolf, given the Balkan venue.

 

Perhaps not great heraldic art but heraldic nonetheless.


I don’t know about the Prince of Transylvania, but this motif appears in the arms of the famous noble Bohemian family of Kinsky, in which it is indeed blazoned as wolf’s teeth.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/8/8f/Kinsky-Wappen.png/160px-Kinsky-Wappen.png

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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05 November 2009 09:50
 

Joseph McMillan;73168 wrote:

Nice try. Too bad for you that the forum provides a very nice record of the postings, so that everyone can go back to post #61 in this thread in which you said, and I quote:

"Wikipedia says the movie is set in 1327, and coats of arms were being used mainly by noble families, and not yet by commoners."


Yes, I said it was likely arms were being used mainly by nobles.

 

A Dictionary.com paste:

main⋅ly

  /ˈmeɪnli/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [meyn-lee] Show IPA

–adverb

1.  chiefly; principally; for the most part; in the main; to the greatest extent: Our success was due mainly to your efforts. The audience consisted mainly of students.

 

Notice that mainly does not mean all or only, nor something like to the exclusion of others.  So arms were mainly used by nobles, and not yet commoners, as is the case today.  Duh.  Arms can not be mainly used by nobles and mainly used by commoners at the same time, that would add up to more than the amount possible and thus contradict itself.

 

Also, it is not a quote if you emphasize another’s words to draw attention away from the proper connotation.  So, no, you do not quote.

 
dr.h.roth
 
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dr.h.roth
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05 November 2009 12:55
 

The Kinsky arms can be found in:

Siebmacher, Band FstA, Seite: 127, Tafel: 155, Mä, Seite: 158, Tafel: 113, OstN, Seite: 219, Tafel: 152, PrGfN, Seite: 24, Tafel: 19, Sa, Seite: 50, Tafel: 57, ÖSchl, Seite: 95, Tafel: 49):

 

Wolf’s teeth not uncommon in Germanic heraldry.

 
Deer Sniper
 
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Deer Sniper
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06 November 2009 20:12
 

Marcus K;72850 wrote:

Oh, I see that they have incorporated the White Hand of Saruman from Tolkien’s books.


I am afraid they didn’t put that much thought into it. They just consulted the bucket shops. :(

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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Michael Y. Medvedev
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08 November 2009 08:20
 

dr.h.roth;73191 wrote:

Wolf’s teeth not uncommon in Germanic heraldry.

Dear Hans, this may be the case but the most prominent wolfs’-teeth-bearing armigers are AFAIK marginal or neighbourly vis-a-vis the Germanic heraldry (Bathory, Kinsky, Drakula etc).

 
Marcus K
 
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Marcus K
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08 November 2009 17:46
 

Deer Sniper;73217 wrote:

I am afraid they didn’t put that much thought into it. They just consulted the bucket shops. :-(

 
Stephen J F Plowman
 
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Stephen J F Plowman
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09 November 2009 06:02
 

Apologies for those who will have seen this elswhere.

A couple of years ago I was watching the film Nanny McPhee with my children.  To my delight and their horror I spotted some hatchments.  Initially I did a lot of stop & freeze frame on my TV to try to put together a blazon.  A year later I found the hatchment listed in Volume 10 of the Hatchments in Britain series in the Miscellaneous section - location unknown.

 

In May, thanks to my eldest son, I was able to capture a screenshot from my PC of the hatchment in question;

 

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/plowmans/HSS/hatchment02.jpg

 

 

Details from Hatchments in Britain;

 

Thomas Harries (b.1774 d.s.p. 1848) JP, DL, High Sheriff of Shropshire 1802. Married 1798 Barbara Mary Anne Smitheman, daughter and co-heir of John Smitheman.

 

Barry of eight ermine and azure three annulets Or (Harries)

In pretence Quarterly of Six 1st & 6th Vert three eagles close Argent (Smithman)

2nd Chequy Argent and Sable

3rd Argent a chevron Gules between three chapeaux gules turned up ermine

4th Gules a talbot passant Argent (Comberford)

5th Azure a lion rampant an orle of fleur-de-lis Or (Beaumont)

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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11 November 2009 15:22
 

as to the dexter hand couped apaume, hand of ulster, there are several different depictions of it in irish, and even scottish, heraldry; different colors and metals. i’ve also seen this, and the trefoil, in a number of nordic origin arms and even some germanic ones.

as to Hollywood’s version of a Cullen coat of arms, well, it’s Hollywood. i don’t expect them to get it right and when they do i am happily impressed. in this case, for Twilight, i’m not. it appears to be little more than a Hollywood artist’s interpretation (as in how he/she thinks it should be) of how it looks like.

 

fwiw, those arms are the arms of O’Cullen of Glencullen (the Cullens of Cullenstown descend directly from this line), which is in Co. Wicklow. it is not a surprise that their arms imitate those of O’Byrne (not O’Beirne) of Ballinacor who along with the O’Tooles were driven from Dublin proper by the Normans and moved into Co. Wicklow where they eclipsed the O’Cullens in power in that part of the Kingdom of Leinster by 1300 and were therefore their overlords. it seems to me at least this is a typical case of feudalism in armory, which is more common in Irish, as in native Irish, armory than one might expect. and the dexter hand couped is, in this case, a connection between tribes of the Ulster and Leinster peoples who these two clans descend from respectively.

 

Blazon of O’Byrne of Ballinacor (superior clan)

Arms: Gules, a chevron between three dexter hands coped at the wrist Argent.

Crest: A mermaid with comb and mirror all Proper.

 

Blazon of O’Cullen of Glencullen (lesser clan)

Arms: Gules, on a chevron between three dexter hands couped at the wrist Argent, a garb of the first between two trefoils slipt Vert.

Crest: A mermaid with a comb and mirror all Proper.

 
Brad Smith
 
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Brad Smith
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09 December 2009 22:45
 

I was watching "Pride and Prejudice" (2005, the one with Keira Knightley) the other night.  At the end, when Elizabeth is speaking to her father about marrying Mr. Darcy, there appears to be a Coat of Arms displayed on the wall behind her.  It was quartered more than once, so my ability to blazon it is limited.  I’d be interested to see if anyone else can blazon it.

 
Madalch
 
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Madalch
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10 December 2009 02:13
 

I just watched this week’s CSI:NY.  In the apartment, there is a stained glass window with three coats of arms.

The first one is Gules, a castle Argent.

 

The second is Quarterly Or and Gules, a bordure compony of the arms of Leon and Castille (the Spanish province of Jaen).

 

The third is Azure, an arm in armour brandishing a sword impaling a boar’s head and a heart, all proper (Hungarian city of Maros Vasarhely).

 

The latter two are from plates CXV and CXVIII of Fox-Davies’ Art of Heraldry; I suspect the first one was meant to be the arms of Czaslau, also on Plate CXVIII of that esteemed tome.