I asked this question a fair while ago and never got much of a response.  But, I stumbled across THIS page again and it got me thinking some more.
<div class=“bbcode_center” >
http://perso.modulonet.fr/~briantimms/rolls gif/Montagu01.gif
</div>
Does anybody have any clue as to where and/or when the King of Griffony (Le Roy de Griffonye) ruled.  There is some indication that this "King" is related to the Montagues of Great Britain, through a Norman invader named DROGO DE MONTE-ACUTO.  But all indications say that this fellow was far from a king.

Any information helps.

I wish I did Everett. Sorry man. :(

One assumes that you found this obscure sovereign, the King of Griffony (if he actually existed), amongst the illustrious arms on the Heralds Roll, found online here: http://perso.numericable.fr/~briantimms/rolls/heraldsHE01.htm. Since the list is full of exotics such as the King of Armenia and the Prince of Antioch, I will propose that the King of Griffony is none other than the King of Greece, the Greeks often being referred to as Griffons in the Medieval Period and in earlier times.

For more information read this page of Modern Language Notes, Vol. 22, No. 2 (February 1907), pp. 47-49 <a >2.0.CO;2-L&size=LARGE” class=“bbcode_url”>http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0149-6611(190702)22:2<47:G’>2.0.CO;2-L&size=LARGE</a>

*edited by member*

Donnchadh wrote:

I watched a Discovery Channel show on the Normans and their conquests including in the East and in the Holy Land where they set themselves up us princes and rulers and whatnot. I am wondering if this is not one such case? However, I really don’t know for sure.

The Kingdom of Sicily, the Island of Malta, the Principality of Antioch (in Lebanon) and the Duchies of Dukes of Apulia and Calabria (in southern Italy) were ruled by Normans variously in the eleventh and twelfth centuries. There were also the Frankish Crusader kingdoms of Cyprus, Rhodes, Jerusalem, Armenia and Eddesa in which the Normans would have had some participation.

I see that the Armorial includes the arms of Prester John, mythical Christian ruler of Ethiopia, according to medieval scholars. Though sometimes he was described as a Christian ruler in Asia. There are many fables about his kingdom, such as that giant ants dug up gold for his treasury, and that he had a mirror that allowed him to see all his domain.

OK, back to heraldry! Once I saw other arms attributed to him, Argent and with the, I believe they are called, Instruments of the Passion. (Denny, feel free to correct me on the terminology).

Regards,

MohamedHossam wrote:

OK, back to heraldry! Once I saw other arms attributed to him, Argent and with the, I believe they are called, Instruments of the Passion. (Denny, feel free to correct me on the terminology).

There are a number of traditional combinations of implements that could be termed the Instruments of the Passion, one being the Crown of Thorns and the Three Nails; the second being the Holy Lance and the Three Nails; the third being the Pillar and crossed Scourges and probably a number of other combination variations that I have yet to see.  What charges were depicted in the attributed arms of "Prester John" that you saw?

MohamedHossam wrote:

I see that the Armorial includes the arms of Prester John, mythical Christian ruler of Ethiopia, according to medieval scholars. Though sometimes he was described as a Christian ruler in Asia. There are many fables about his kingdom, such as that giant ants dug up gold for his treasury, and that he had a mirror that allowed him to see all his domain.

An interesting fellow, Prester John. Supposedly had a domain so vast that he ruled over 75 Royal Vassals, who each had kings below them. Supposedly his son, Prester David was comming to the aid of the Crusaders during the Fifth Crusade by conquering the Muslim empires to the east… at the time there was someone running amok in that region but he turned out not to be a Christian King but rather the Great Kahn.

There are some interesting historic parallels between resurgences of the rester John story between the seventh and eleventh centuries that correlate with increased pressure on Europe and/or the Holy Land by various Muslim empires.  Sort of a "not to worry, Prester John is still out there" sort of idea.

But I digress…

Thanks for the Griffony = Greek I hadn’t heard about that.  I am also beginning to think that the Herald’s Roll is simply mistaken that the arms labeled as King of Griffony simply belonged to Simon de Montagu and that such a place of Griffony may just not have existed.

I just Googled the blazon and found a match:

Quote:

Davis of Pangbourne. Azure a griffon or.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/image-thumb.aspx?compid=43221&ampfilename=fig196.gif

From: ‘Parishes: Pangbourne’, A History of the County of Berkshire: volume 3 (1923), pp. 303-06. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=43221. Date accessed: 26 January 2007.

—Guy

Apparently "Azure a griffon Or" is a common blazon.  I did not do the research, but a further Google search found this information on another chat room:
Quote:

From Rietstap’s Armorial Général:

Name: Adjouste

D’azur, au griffon d’or.

 

Name: Affaitati

D’azur, au griffon d’or.

 

Name: Alléon

D’azur, au griffon d’or ou d’argent, becqué, armé et langué de

gueules.

 

Name: Bachasson

D’azur, au griffon d’or.

 

Name: Champrond

D’azur, au griffon d’or. Ou: D’or, au griffon d’azur.

 

Name: Chissier

D’azur, au griffon d’or.

 

Name: Griffon

D’azur, au griffon d’or. (Griffon de Saint-Cesari).

 

Name: Gundelfinger von Gundelfingen zu Phin

D’azur, au griffon d’or. Casque couronné.

 

http://www-gatago.com/rec/heraldry/41379453.html

Northumberland families

Quote:

Name:: Morland

Town:

Arms: Per-pale Baron and femme, the first, azure, a griffon rampant or; second, argent, three greyhonds current sable.

Crest: A sparrow hawk proper, erect in profile.

MS Page N°.: 44

MS Period:

MS Notes:

....

Name:: Read

Town: Hethpole

Arms: Azure, a griffon segreant or.

Crest:

MS Page N°.: 85

MS Period:

MS Notes:

 

http://www.sandmartyn.freeserve.co.uk/Heraldry/roll03/1915roll.html

The only other Instruments that I can think of that haven&#8217;t already been mentioned by David that I&#8217;ve seen associated with the Passion of the Lord are the Cross itself, the Whip used to shred the Christ&#8217;s flesh, the Titulus Crucis used to identify and mock the King, The Holy Hammer, and the Holy Grail (legends abound about it and St. Joseph of Arimathea) and the Holy Sponge. Dave&#8217;s right in that they are seen in any number of combinations.

On the Irish Penal Rosary, made famous because it was used to catechize the faithful when the Anglican and English powers would not let us catechize our children in the Faith, by the engraving of these symbols on the cross itself. You can see a good modern version of the rosary with an OK general history here: http://www.rosaryworkshop.com/MUSEUM-IrishPenalRosary-20c.html but there is a better version of the rosary with a better explanation of the symbols here: http://www.atelier-beads.com/irish1.php

In total they are:

The Holy Cross

The Holy Nails

The Holy Hammer

The Spear of Destiny

The Holy Whip

The Holy Pillar

The Crown of Thorns

The Holy Sponge

The Titulus Crucis

The Holy Grail

In Mr. Denny&#8217;s, Heraldic Imagination one can see some examples of this in heraldry. Fine work that book. IIRC there is even a bit about about Prester John there…or somewhere as I did read of him and some sort of an armorial achievement that was attributed to him.

I leave it to the good Father Guy to add my list, as needed.

Denny,

I recall seeing a drawing of passion tools in a missal, and I’m sure I saw some tongs (or clippers?)—I suppose to either pull out the nails (if tongs) or to snip off the nail heads to remove the Corpus (if clippers)??

—Guy

You may be right Guy. It’d make sense.

I wonder what our Orthodox brothers see…I wonder if it is the same as us RCs?

Guy Power wrote:

I recall seeing a drawing of passion tools in a missal, and I’m sure I saw some tongs (or clippers?)—I suppose to either pull out the nails (if tongs) or to snip off the nail heads to remove the Corpus (if clippers)??

A quote from the book Church Symbolism, An Explanation of the More Important Symbols of the Old and New Testament, the Primitive, the Medieval and the Modern Church by F.R. Weber; published 1938: "The Pincers. In old carved woodwork, and in a great many present day examples, the pincers, supposedly used to draw out the nails, are pictured. The pincers, holding a single nail, is the usual form of the design. In some examples, the pincers and hammer are shown, in saltire."

Donnchadh wrote:

I wonder what our Orthodox brothers see…I wonder if it is the same as us RCs?

I have been in dozens of Orthodox Churches and I cannot say that they use these type of symbols the way that the Roman Catholics use them. May be such symbols are not so important when the inside of an Orthodox Church is covered with dozens if not a hundred icons or more. How useful can mere depictions of the Instruments of the Passion be when one has sacred iconographic depictions of the Passion in every church?