Here are the - rather poor - arms of the Anglican American cathedral of Paris.

http://www.americancathedral.org/images/banner/cathemb6.gif

http://www.americancathedral.org/html/chapters/indexFr.htm

Nicolas

Hi Nicolas. Thanks for the post. I would agree that this isn’t a very attractice design. Well…maybe not a bad design, but really not a good rendering of it. I’m not sure which I have a problem with - design, or, representation. It seems a bit busy to me, but hey, that’s just me.

Oof… that’s too bad.  If I’m not mistaken, Carl Alexander von Volborth’s The Art of Heraldry shows a completely different and very attractive set of arms for this church, designed by an American expat in Paris.  Wonder what happened?  I’ll have to look it up tonight.

The arms of the Dean of the American Cathedral in Paris (an Anglican cathedral’s arms would normally be in the name of the dean, or of the dean and chapter) are shown in Volborth’s The Art of Heraldry as "Argent on a cross Gules a trefoil Or, on a quarter Azure a ship under sail of the field."  The designer is given as Derk Kinnane Roelofsma, described as an American of Dutch and Irish descent living in Paris.

The trefoil is apparently a reference to the Holy Trinity (to which the cathedral is dedicated).  The overall design would seem to echo the arms of the Episcopal Church in the USA, and the ship in the first quarter is obviously from the arms of Paris itself.

Much nicer than what’s on the website.  Wonder what happened to this design.

So, does that mean that they changed the design, or simply that this design was placed there perhaps by mistake? (I know it’s hard to ask you to respond for them, sorry Joe).

I rather like the simple one. In fact I rather like the way the Anglicans/Episcopalians tend to do it. I love the argent field with the gules cross of St. George and using the first quarter to difference it all. Rather brilliant in a simple way and I think that is great heraldry.

The more I see this one here on the computer and see the other one in my mind’s eye – the more I am inclined to consider this one they use now as truly ugly. I hope that doesn’t offend anyone.

Nicolas Vernot wrote:

Here are the - rather poor - arms of the Anglican American cathedral of Paris.

That’s interesting as that’s not what I have recorded as the official Arms of the Cathedral of the Holy Trinity in Paris.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gjksheraldry/acp00.gif

A is the one that is shown on that website, What is the official blazon of A then? However, B is the one that I have recorded - ‘Argent a Cross Gules charged with a Trefoil Or a Ship Argent upon the first quarter Azure’ as designed by Derk Kinnane-Roelofsma of Paris and Washington.  Does anyone know why the difference as one would expect a web-page to denote the arms that are supposed to be those officially registered?

The arms Geoff shows are the same ones I blazoned above.  I share his puzzlement.  The problem is, I’m not sure there is any such thing as "officially registered" arms in this context, unless they’ve been registered with a French notary or published as the cathedral’s arms through some other process in France.  I would assume the dean and chapter are free to alter their arms at will—for the worse as well as for the better.

I’m going to be in Paris in a couple of weeks.  If my wife and kids will indulge the short detour from our sightseeing, maybe I’ll look in at the American Cathedral and see what arms are being displayed.

Well, in view of this discussion, when I was at church this morning, I took a look at Eckford DeKay’s HERALDRY IN THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH.  On page 100

he describes the Arms of the Cathedral of the Holy Trinity, Paris, France.

"The connection of the American Cathedral in Paris with the Episcopal Church is evident in the red cross on a silver field with the first quarter in blue.  The white ship under sail symbolizes the Church overseas. A gold trefoil, symbol of the Trinity, appears at the center of the cross.  The blazon is ‘Argent a cross gules charged with a trefoil Or, a ship argent upon the first quarter azure.’  The arms were designed by Derk Kinnane-Roelofsma of Paris and Washington."

Might not the ship also symbolize Paris, since the city has a ship on it’s arms?

I am convinced that you are right.

I am sure the ship comes from Paris CoA. It is not the first time that I notice that an evident heraldic choice or allusion is "neglected" in an official explanation. Is it due to ignorance ? Or rather due to the fact that when things seem obvious, redactors do not even think about writing them down ?

Nicolas

Joseph McMillan wrote:

The problem is, I’m not sure there is any such thing as "officially registered" arms in this context, unless they’ve been registered with a French notary or published as the cathedral’s arms through some other process in France.  I would assume the dean and chapter are free to alter their arms at will—for the worse as well as for the better.

Although it is possible in France to have one’s arms recorded with a notary, I have, actually, never heard of anybody doing it.

Even if arms are protected by french law (CoA are considered as an "accessory of the name"), there is no State armorial. In case of usurpation, you will have to prove that your arms are older ; that is why some people publish their arms in any publication submitted with the copyright record held by the Bibliothèque Nationale. But a carved stone with the date would be suitable as well !

So, as far as arms are concerned, I would say that "the use makes the record"!

Nicolas

I read this thread only today because I was on vacation, thus the late reply.

I looked up the arms in "the art of heraldry"and it clearly states that they are the arms of the Dean of the American Cathedral, the shield is ensigned with the hat of an Anglican Dean. So I think that the arms on the site are those of the Cathedral and the other arms are those of the Dean or you could say his office.

Except that the legal personality of an Anglican (or Episcopalian, in US terms) cathedral is normally "the dean and chapter."  The cathedral itself is merely the building.  I’ve never run across any other case where the cathedral has different arms from the dean.

But this one is in Paris and so French law applies, it all depends on what way the legal entity under which the cathedral operates is established.

Maybe one can imagine a CoA for the parish, and another for the dean ? Well, I do not really believe in that hypothesis. Church heraldry in France, when it still exists, is usually not so elaborated.

To my mind, this is just ignorance and confusion who led to this new quartered shield.

Nicolas