gselvester;45528 wrote:
Many of the heraldic officers present used the occasion of the Congress as the driving force behind having tabards made in the first place. But I’m curious as to whether or not it is assumed that wearing a tabard at "state ceremonial" makes it more "real" in the minds of some? Some of those heraldic officers present are private heralds of individual Scottish noblemen rather than members of the Court of Lord Lyon. So, they don’t take part in state ceremonial but their tabards are no less authentic than those of the heralds and pursuivants of the Lyon Court. Many orders of chivalry maintain their own heraldic officers and their tabards are not merely costumes.
Nevertheless, I think Jens’s question is a fair one. An "unused" tabard—by which I mean one that is never used in the course of carrying out heraldic duties—is still a tabard, as Fr. Guy says, but it would still be interesting to know the extent to which the wearing of the tabard is a genuinely living custom.
By the way, I don’t know if it’s been reported before, but I learned yesterday, looking for something else, that we have a authentic British tabard here in the United States, in the collection of the Philadelphia Museum of Art.
From the museum’s website:
(I guess the museum doesn’t like it’s photos being hotlinked. Go to the link below to see the picture.)
Herald’s Tabard
This tabard is appliquéd with embroidered motifs forming the coat of arms of Queen Anne (reigned 1702-14): the three lions of England and the lion rampant of Scotland quartered with the harp of Ireland and the fleurs-de-lis of France, then claimed by England. The Scottish symbol dates the tabard after 1707, when the parliaments of Scotland and England were combined to form the Parliament of Great Britain.
Made in England
1707-14
Artist/maker unknown, English. Worn by Sir Henry St. George (the Younger), British.
Silk satin weave with silk and gilt fabric appliqué; silk and gilt thread embroidery in couching and satin stitches and laid work; glass beads
Center Back Length: 34 inches (86.4 cm)
Currently not on view
1930-28-1
Gift of Elizabeth Malcolm Bowman in memory of Wendell Phillips Bowman, 1930
Go to http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/permanent/44111.html and click the photo for a larger view.
Donnchadh;45602 wrote:
Just throwin’ this out there…why doesn’t the AHS look into this sort of thing? If you are ever able to get general meetings in person you could have one worn by whomever…maybe a herald for the society…at these events.
Well, as I remember the argument from the last time this subject came up correctly, because we do not officially represent heraldry anywhere, it would be seen as presumptuous and inappropriate for us to have an office of Herald, or to show up at a heraldic convention in tabards, even if it was just internal. The Heralds, Pursuivants, etc. in David Appleton’s pics that we’ve been discussing are official governmental representatives and/or the officials of noble families that rank highly enough to have Heralds. Therefore, as the argument goes, even if we only wore tabards at our own events, the rest of the heraldic community would see us as pretending to be something we’re not.
If we ever gain the status of being the official heraldic representative of something or someone who might actually have such an office ... then, and only then, would it behoove us to appoint a Herald and get tabards.
Important disclaimer. This argument does not necessarily represent the opinions of the writer, the American Heraldry Society etc.
Patrick Williams;45657 wrote:
Important disclaimer. This argument does not necessarily represent the opinions of the writer, the American Heraldry Society etc.
Well, if not those of the writer, it represents the opinions of this reader just fine!
It’s worth adding that the private pursuivants in Scotland are appointed with the approval of Lord Lyon, so even they have some official sanction.
Quote:
Well, as I remember the argument from the last time this subject came up correctly, because we do not officially represent heraldry anywhere, it would be seen as presumptuous and inappropriate for us to have an office of Herald, or to show up at a heraldic convention in tabards, even if it was just internal. The Heralds, Pursuivants, etc. in David Appleton’s pics that we’ve been discussing are official governmental representatives and/or the officials of noble families that rank highly enough to have Heralds. Therefore, as the argument goes, even if we only wore tabards at our own events, the rest of the heraldic community would see us as pretending to be something we’re not.
If we ever gain the status of being the official heraldic representative of something or someone who might actually have such an office ... then, and only then, would it behoove us to appoint a Herald and get tabards.
Well, I’m not sure that Darren’s organization has some sort of high noble status or of a governmental level on par with the Canadian heralds and he mentioned using in a context for their business. And being as he is a citizen of a British Commonwealth nation (I tihnk) I figured that’s why I’d mentioned it.
Of course, as I’ve been reminded from time to time, I’m not a member here, only a guest, so I probably shouldn’t even have mentioned it…that is bad form on my part in retrospect…not my place…so forgive and ignore the idea. No harm no foul…just rambling thoughts of a tired kid from Colorado. 
http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/ng/z/ng-kog-42.z
a tabbard of the house of Orange first used in 1647 and the only one left
Donnchadh;45671 wrote:
Well, I’m not sure that Darren’s organization has some sort of high noble status or of a governmental level on par with the Canadian heralds and he mentioned using in a context for their business.
I’m not sure I’d suggest that it’s appropriate for any adult to wear a tabard of the arms of a heraldic society (although I know one RHSC member who wears a tabard-like tunic of her (her husband’s?) arms to the annual dinners).
However, my daughter is sufficiently cute to get away with it.
Donnchadh;45671 wrote:
Well, I’m not sure that Darren’s organization has some sort of high noble status or of a governmental level on par with the Canadian heralds and he mentioned using in a context for their business. And being as he is a citizen of a British Commonwealth nation (I tihnk) I figured that’s why I’d mentioned it.
Of course, as I’ve been reminded from time to time, I’m not a member here, only a guest, so I probably shouldn’t even have mentioned it…that is bad form on my part in retrospect…not my place…so forgive and ignore the idea. No harm no foul…just rambling thoughts of a tired kid from Colorado. :D
Madalch;45674 wrote:
I’m not sure I’d suggest that it’s appropriate for any adult to wear a tabard of the arms of a heraldic society (although I know one RHSC member who wears a tabard-like tunic of her (her husband’s?) arms to the annual dinners).
However, my daughter is sufficiently cute to get away with it.
We will, of course, expect pictures.
I love the pictures of the old tabards that have been posted. Thanks for sharing them.
I wouldn’t Pat. I’d stick with your initial feeling. Those are usually dead on anyway. In retrospect I think you are right.
It was a silly idea and I never should’ve mentioned it. In truth I am simply tired and it seemed like a good idea…but then lots of stupid ideas seem good when you are tired. By the by I like the Robinson image post…very nice.
Quote:
Originally posted by: Donnchadh
We should not try to do such things, as we are Americans and as such that sort of pomp & circumstance is in our past, or better left to a Walt Disney movie, and is now really beneath our republican nature anyway.
Denny, how is pomp and circumstance beneath republican nature? It is not like tabards are declaring that the heralds are superior to anyone or anything like that. If pomp and circumstance goes against the egalitarian nature of the US, then what about military parades, or even military corps of music? Or the swearing in of the President amid lavish celebrations?
I see nothing wrong in such pomp and circumstance, and I feel that it is good in any nation, monarchy or republic.
Cheers,
[/on soapbox]
Agreed, Mohamed. And, Denny, I think that’s it’s important to drag these issues out, blow the dust off of them and look at them again from time to time. Who knows, the next time this one comes up someone may have a very convincing argument we haven’t heard before.
As I said, I’d like to see tabards and pomp. I’d expect there are more than me that are interested in heraldry for lots of reasons: the beauty of the art form, the feeling of specialness, even the detail of the rules and the challenges they bring us. And a big part of the fun is participating in the definition of this art/science as an American tradition, helping to build the institution.
At the same time, as unfortunate as it may be, there are politics. How we appear to the world heraldic community is important. I think that is why the old guard sometimes seem so strident to the new guard: they know, from painful experience, that reputation is very crucial to our success. And, of course, they’ve had years and decades of wrangling with the very same questions that we bring up from time to time.
To the oldbies: Please remember that this is stuff is brand new to many of us. Don’t tell us to look in the archives, take the time to explain your position. And remember that while our craft is science, it’s also art and it will grow and change (and has always done). If it doesn’t, it will at best become a curiosity and at worst die out all together. Your knowledge is the key to directing that growth in appropriate ways.
To the newbies: Please remember that just about any burning issue you can think of is very old news to the oldbies. This art/science has existed for more than 800 years and it’s unlikely that there are many ideas that haven’t been kicked around the table a time or two. This doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t ask questions or bring your ideas to the fora, but it does mean that the oldbies will be crotchety from time to time. They’re oldbies, after all. But you may indeed be the one with the convincing argument nobody’s ever heard before. Fresh input breeds fresh output.
[/off soapbox]
In my view there’s nothing anti-republican (small "r") about tabards, etc. It’s just not part of our tradition in this country, and (in my view) introducing them at this late date would be rather artificial. If there had ever been a time when we had heralds, etc., and we were just restoring a previous practice (like the Old Guard Fife and Drum Corps wearing Revolutionary era uniforms at welcoming ceremonies for state visits, for example), then I’d say go for it. But we didn’t.
In any case, there’s all the difference in the world between (a) a private society dressing up people to play herald and (b) a sovereign (the United States, or even one of the states) actually appointing heralds and giving them tabards.
Now if one or both of the Carolinas were to decide to revive the office of Carolina Herald, that might not be a bad thing. Tabards of either the old provincial arms (Gules two cornucopiae replenished in saltire proper) or the design of the South Carolina state flag (Azure a palmetto tree, in dexter chief a crescent bendwise Argent) would be very attractive.
Joseph McMillan;45691 wrote:
Now if one or both of the Carolinas were to decide to revive the office of Carolina Herald, that might not be a bad thing. Tabards of either the old provincial arms (Gules two cornucopiae replenished in saltire proper) or the design of the South Carolina state flag (Azure a palmetto tree, in dexter chief a crescent bendwise Argent) would be very attractive.
I think that Duane Galles wrote an article in a law journal some years ago outlining how the successor states of the original Carolina colony might reintroduce the Carolina herald. Maybe he can outline that for us sometime.
Patrick Williams;45690 wrote:
To the oldbies: Please remember that this is stuff is brand new to many of us. Don’t tell us to look in the archives, take the time to explain your position.
Yes, but it’s rather tiresome to keep replowing old ground. A quick search of the archives before posting does help narrow the issues.