Chronicler of Arms of Castilla and León

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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11 January 2008 20:48
 

Is there any consensus on the validity of certifications issued by the Chronicler of Arms of Castilla and León, H.E. Don Alfonso de Ceballos-Escalera y Gila, Marquis de La Floresta? Is his office still certifying arms?

 
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eploy
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11 January 2008 21:56
 

AFAIK, he is still certifying arms.  He certified my arms in a private certification (basically a fancy notarized document) in 2005.

Unfortunately, however, his latest registrations are not technically valid since he was never appointed a cronista under the relevant Spanish legislation.  His appointment as the Chronicler of Arms for Castille & Leon has been held to apply only to civic heraldry.  His earlier registrations (before around 1995), however, have been countersigned by the Ministry of Justice and thus are legitimate.

 

This situation is unlikely to change in the near future.

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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12 January 2008 05:13
 

Here is a discussion of this issue on an earlier thread: http://americanheraldry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3598

 
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12 January 2008 06:08
 

Fred,

You have a very striking coat of arms.  Assuming that you want to register them with a heraldic authority (i.e., one recognized by the laws of a country), then try finding a Scottish ancestor and then petitioning the Lord Lyon.  Alternatively, try finding an English or Welsh ancestor and petition the College of Arms.  Otherwise your best bet is the South African Bureau of Heraldry.  The Spanish option is technically no longer available for lack of a properly certified Cronista.  The best that is available in Spain is currently a notarized certificate depicting the arms and blazon.

 

Edward

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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12 January 2008 10:22
 

eploy;53080 wrote:

You have a very striking coat of arms.


Thanks, Edward, but I think most of the credit lies with whomever devised the Habersham arms eons ago and the suggestions for appropriate differencing made by members of the AHS.


eploy;53080 wrote:

Assuming that you want to register them with a heraldic authority (i.e., one recognized by the laws of a country), then try finding a Scottish ancestor and then petitioning the Lord Lyon.  Alternatively, try finding an English or Welsh ancestor and petition the College of Arms.  Otherwise your best bet is the South African Bureau of Heraldry.  The Spanish option is technically no longer available for lack of a properly certified Cronista.  The best that is available in Spain is currently a notarized certificate depicting the arms and blazon.


Of the above options, the only one I would consider at this point—if it were viable—is the Spanish, for a variety of mainly sentimental reasons, but how would one go about applying to Don Alfonso for the notarized certificate? Actually, because my direct male line is originally French (by way of Quebec), I would be interested in registering my arms with one of the French associations that handles such things. I’ll have to look into that.

 
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12 January 2008 11:07
 

Fred,

Don Alfonso is very friendly and easily approachable (he speaks fluent English).  His email and snail mail addresses are posted at:  http://www.cronistas.net/heraldic_autorities.htm (it’s not my website).  You can see an example of Don Alfonso’s work at Dr. Charles Drake’s website at:  http://www.wyverngules.com/Webmasters/Spanish/a spanish_certification_of_arms.htm.

 

Depending upon what part of France your family hails from, you might also consider registering your arms with one of the German Heraldry Societies listed elsewhere on this website at:  http://americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Registration.Foreign.  Such registered arms are recognized under German law.

 

Best of luck in your endeavor and keep us posted.

 

Kindest regards,

 

Edward

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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12 January 2008 15:56
 

eploy;53084 wrote:

... you might also consider registering your arms with one of the German Heraldry Societies listed elsewhere on this website at: http://americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Registration.Foreign. Such registered arms are recognized under German law.


Which is of practical value only if you plan to use the arms in Germany.

 

Ditto for any other foreign grant, certification, registration, matriculation, etc.—of practical value in the country concerned, of purely sentimental and possibly esthetic value elsewhere.

 
JOSE CARRION RANGEL
 
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JOSE CARRION RANGEL
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12 January 2008 17:11
 

Currently in Spain there are four official chroniclers certifying arms for villages. Only for villages:

Don Alfonso de Ceballos-Escalera y Gila, Marquis of the Floresta. About whom all of you knows everything. Official chronicler of Castleland and Lyon.

Don Armand de Fluvià i Escorsa, official chronicler of the Principality of Catalonia.

Don Manuel Rodriguez de Maribona y Dávila, official chronicler of the Principality of Asturias, and

Fray Valentín de la Cruz, Carmelite, official chronicler of the province of Burgos, in Castleland and Lyon.

 

Only one of them is currently certifying arms for people: don Alfonso, marquis of the Floresta. The sign of the king, don Juan Carlos I is in a determinate number of certifications, supporting them.

 
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12 January 2008 21:44
 

Joseph McMillan;53093 wrote:

Which is of practical value only if you plan to use the arms in Germany.

Ditto for any other foreign grant, certification, registration, matriculation, etc.—of practical value in the country concerned, of purely sentimental and possibly esthetic value elsewhere.


In the case of Germany, Scotland & England/Wales would not the rest of the EU at least take notice of arms recognized pursuant to national law?  (I’m no expert on EU law).  Such arms also seem to receive some limited recognition among other heraldic authorities (e.g., the Canadian Heraldic Authority would allow a registration of Scottish Arms in Canada albeit, however, inheritance differs in these two systems) and heraldic societies.  US & many state Courts technically may also take notice of foreign laws should a heraldic matter come before their review.

 

One’s best bet might be to register the arms as a trademark/servicemark (assuming you use your arms in your business such as a consulting business) in your home country.  If your country is a member of the Madrid Protocol (the US is a member), eventually the same arms can be registered pursuant to the protocol and the arms can be recognized and protected internationally in about 75 other countries.  Of course, this route works only if you use your arms in your trade or business and thus may not appeal to most armigers.

 

So a foreign registration might have more value than a purely "sentimental and possibly esthetic value".  How much more is uncertain as there seem to be very few if any cases involving heraldry that have made it to the international arena.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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12 January 2008 23:07
 

Joseph McMillan;53093 wrote:

Ditto for any other foreign grant, certification, registration, matriculation, etc.—of practical value in the country concerned, of purely sentimental and possibly esthetic value elsewhere.


Evidently, though I am (like all of us here, I believe) both sentimental and a bit of an aesthete, so maybe one of these days I’ll take the plunge, even if there’s no pragmatic end to be attained that I haven’t attained already through the NEHGS and the U.S. Heraldic Registry.

 
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13 January 2008 06:59
 

Fred White;53102 wrote:

Evidently, though I am (like all of us here, I believe) both sentimental and a bit of an aesthete, so maybe one of these days I’ll take the plunge, even if there’s no pragmatic end to be attained that I haven’t attained already through the NEHGS and the U.S. Heraldic Registry.


AFAIK, NEHGS and the U.S. Heraldic Registry are merely just registers.  In other words, they will simply register your requested arms without any quality control/assurance and sometimes without checking for duplication or close similarities with other designed arms.

 

Registering your arms with a foreign heraldic authority gives the added benefit of working with a professional herald, whose job it is to ensure that the design meets heraldic rules and customs and that the arms do not duplicate other arms in the relevant jurisdiction in question.  Add to this fact is the legal protection your arms receives in at least one sovereign nation and the courtesy recognition it may receive with other sovereign nations and with heraldic societies.  Thus, IMHO a foreign registration may give more than just sentimental and asethetic satisfaction.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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13 January 2008 09:30
 

Edward wrote, in two posts:


Quote:

In the case of Germany, Scotland & England/Wales would not the rest of the EU at least take notice of arms recognized pursuant to national law? (I’m no expert on EU law).


No, heraldry is not within the EU ambit.  If it were, there would be chaos in several armorial systems, since the Eurocrats in Brussels would undoubtedly find inconsistent with EU human rights law such elements as male-line inheritance and the British theory that a petitioner for arms must meet some standard of social acceptability before being granted arms.


Quote:

Such arms also seem to receive some limited recognition among other heraldic authorities (e.g., the Canadian Heraldic Authority would allow a registration of Scottish Arms in Canada albeit, however, inheritance differs in these two systems) and heraldic societies.


Limited indeed.  True, the CHA is pretty open to registering arms granted to Canadians by the various British authorities, but Lyon Court apparently won’t recognize Canadian grants, the College of Arms won’t recognize Lyon’s grants except to people domiciled in Scotland, German registrations apparently carry no weight at all across the North Sea, no one seems to be recognizing CHI grants these days thanks to the extended bout of self-flagellation the Irish heraldic community has been going through, etc.

 

The practical question, from a US perspective, is what good would it do if a grant by one country in which you don’t use your arms is recognized in another country where you don’t use your arms?


Quote:

US & many state Courts technically may also take notice of foreign laws should a heraldic matter come before their review.


The courts may also take note of a private registration by a US society.  But any court that took heraldry seriously enough to accept an armorial case should pull out Sir Crispin Agnew on "Conflict of Heraldic Laws," where the judge would read that any grant of arms has effect outside the territory of the granting authority only to the extent provided for in the receiving country’s laws.  So a US court would reasonably take note of the foreign grant and then rule it irrelevant, since the US has no laws providing for the recognition of foreign grants.


Quote:

One’s best bet might be to register the arms as a trademark/servicemark (assuming you use your arms in your business such as a consulting business) in your home country. If your country is a member of the Madrid Protocol (the US is a member), eventually the same arms can be registered pursuant to the protocol and the arms can be recognized and protected internationally in about 75 other countries. Of course, this route works only if you use your arms in your trade or business and thus may not appeal to most armigers.


It also has other drawbacks, such as that if you later sell the business, you may find that strangers have a right to your arms and your heirs do not.


Quote:

AFAIK, NEHGS and the U.S. Heraldic Registry are merely just registers. In other words, they will simply register your requested arms without any quality control/assurance and sometimes without checking for duplication or close similarities with other designed arms.


I’ll let Mike Swanson speak for himself.  This is certainly unfair to the NEHGS and ACH, and I believe to the Augustan Society itself.  I know the NEHGS runs a check for duplication, because I had the discussion personally with Henry Beckwith when I was recording my arms with the Committee on Heraldry.


Quote:

Registering your arms with a foreign heraldic authority gives the added benefit of working with a professional herald, whose job it is to ensure that the design meets heraldic rules and customs and that the arms do not duplicate other arms in the relevant jurisdiction in question.


This can easily be achieved without reliance on a foreign heraldic authority, and at considerably lower cost than the $7400+ currently charged by the College of Arms, or even the $2700 charged by Lyon Court.  Not to mention whatever expense is incurred in being able to prove up to 225 years worth of ancestry to establish eligibility for an English, Scottish, or Irish grant.

 

I have nothing against foreign grants and registrations.  Maybe I’ll pursue one myself one day, and I don’t want to be accused of hypocrisy if I do.  My point is merely that one ought to understand exactly what one is buying before shelling out the equivalent of a year’s in-state tuition at a good public university.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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13 January 2008 10:56
 

Joseph McMillan;53110 wrote:

I have nothing against foreign grants and registrations.  Maybe I’ll pursue one myself one day, and I don’t want to be accused of hypocrisy if I do.  My point is merely that one ought to understand exactly what one is buying before shelling out the equivalent of a year’s in-state tuition at a good public university.


My thoughts exactly, Joseph, but driven by inference and intuition rather than anything even approximating the grasp of the legal lacunae you’ve articulated. My impression is that establishing legal protection for personal heraldry is a non-starter in the U.S., but in the event Congress starts holding hearings on heraldic regulation, I nominate you as the AHS’s delegate! smile (Anybody want to second that?) Meanwhile, I thank Edward for his optimism and the helpful tips on getting in touch with Don Alfonso.

 

A tangential question: Has anyone here ever ordered letterhead from Laurent Granier?

 
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13 January 2008 11:46
 

Fred White;53111 wrote:

My impression is that establishing legal protection for personal heraldry is a non-starter in the U.S., but in the event Congress starts holding hearings on heraldic regulation, I nominate you as the AHS’s delegate! wink

Many thanks to Joseph for the detailed and insightful point-by-point explanation.

 

Personally, I’m saving my $7000 (pretty proud of their grants, aren’t they?).

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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13 January 2008 19:25
 

Fred White;53111 wrote:

...in the event Congress starts holding hearings on heraldic regulation, I nominate you as the AHS’s delegate!


Be careful what you ask for!  Since I oppose heraldic regulation in this country, and certainly any federal role in such, I’m not sure the members would be entirely happy with my testimony.


Quote:

A tangential question: Has anyone here ever ordered letterhead from Laurent Granier?


Don’t know about letterhead, but the emblazonment of Rob Hardin’s arms in our members’s gallery is by Granier:

 

http://americanheraldry.org/pages/uploads/Armorial/Hardin_ahs_l2.jpg

 
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15 January 2008 05:57
 

Joseph McMillan;53110 wrote:

No, heraldry is not within the EU ambit.  If it were, there would be chaos in several armorial systems, since the Eurocrats in Brussels would undoubtedly find inconsistent with EU human rights law such elements as male-line inheritance and the British theory that a petitioner for arms must meet some standard of social acceptability before being granted arms.


Was heraldry specifically left out?  Wouldn’t national laws regarding heraldry (i.e., the laws recognizing heraldry) be respected and upheld by the EU so long as there is no conflict with EU law?  Afterall, as we all know the Court of the LL is an actual court of law in Scotland and the law of arms, which is civil law, is part of the law in the UK.  Now assuming for example that British male-line descent of arms violates EU human rights laws (I suspect it would), then couldn’t the same argument be made against national laws on the inheritance of surnames?  Indulge me; I’m trying to protect the legal recognition of heraldry here….  :-(

 


Joseph McMillan;53110 wrote:

I’ll let Mike Swanson speak for himself.  This is certainly unfair to the NEHGS and ACH, and I believe to the Augustan Society itself.  I know the NEHGS runs a check for duplication, because I had the discussion personally with Henry Beckwith when I was recording my arms with the Committee on Heraldry.


Actually, I specifically did not mention the American College of Heraldry (ACH) or the Augustan Society in my previous post.  The ACH does do quality control & check for duplication; I know since my arms are registered with this group.  The Augustan Society also does quality control & check for duplication according to my enquiries with that body.

 

I said "AFAIK" when referring to NEHGS and the U.S. Heraldic Register.  I am more than happy to be proven wrong if it means my arms (and the arms of others) have been declared unique and therefore morally if not legally mine (ours).

 


Joseph McMillan;53110 wrote:

This can easily be achieved without reliance on a foreign heraldic authority, and at considerably lower cost than the $7400+ currently charged by the College of Arms, or even the $2700 charged by Lyon Court.  Not to mention whatever expense is incurred in being able to prove up to 225 years worth of ancestry to establish eligibility for an English, Scottish, or Irish grant.

I have nothing against foreign grants and registrations.  Maybe I’ll pursue one myself one day, and I don’t want to be accused of hypocrisy if I do.  My point is merely that one ought to understand exactly what one is buying before shelling out the equivalent of a year’s in-state tuition at a good public university.


True, but there are also organizations like HGW that will register arms for USD 300 (which is USD 25 cheaper than what the ACH currently charges) and the Bureau of Heraldry in South Africa which charges far less than either the CoA & the LL to register arms.  Experience with a state herald need not cost an arm and a leg.

 

My point has simply been that foreign grants and registrations do more than just yield sentimental or asethetic benefits.  First, they show that a coat of arms has gone through additional QA/QC procedures with state-recognized heralds (sadly the US has no such heralds as our heralds are private individuals).  Second, they result in wider recognition of one’s arms simply because more heralds and members of the public will be aware of your arms.  This is beneficial in our increasingly small world with better internet access.  Third, they also give the applicant the experience of dealing with a professional, state herald which I found to be a very enjoyable and this experience enhanced my appreciation of heralds & heraldry.  The last reason (or excuse according to my wife) was of particular importance to me as it allows me to enjoy my hobby more fully since I can actively participate in a grant process.