I must ask again, as I have in the past, what makes someone a "professional" herald?

Also, even the College of Arms in London is a private organization and the heralds, while appointed by the Crown, are not connected to the government. They are "employed" by the head of state but not by the state.

gselvester;53175 wrote:

I must ask again, as I have in the past, what makes someone a "professional" herald?

Best I can figure its either (a) someone who gets paid for doing heraldry, or (b) someone with a fancy title and a nice seal to go along with it. Since option (a) would seem to imply that bucket shops are professional heralds, I’m inclined to go with option (b).

eploy;53171 wrote:

Was heraldry specifically left out?  Wouldn’t national laws regarding heraldry (i.e., the laws recognizing heraldry) be respected and upheld by the EU so long as there is no conflict with EU law?  Afterall, as we all know the Court of the LL is an actual court of law in Scotland and the law of arms, which is civil law, is part of the law in the UK.  Now assuming for example that British male-line descent of arms violates EU human rights laws (I suspect it would), then couldn’t the same argument be made against national laws on the inheritance of surnames?  Indulge me; I’m trying to protect the legal recognition of heraldry here…. 

You can use your mother’s name, with a minimum of fuss. You cannot use your mother’s arms, in the UK, without a lot of fuss.

Fred, PM Rob and ask him. Rob is a great fellow. he is nice and i think if he had one he’d respond telling you. if he didn’t he might know someone who has.

i can email him and ask him and then get back to ya if you’d like. let me know.

i think the difference for me Daniel is that a herald is not necessarily a heraldic artist too.

by that i mean that i suspect, though i dont know, that by and large all the different college heralds around the globe are knowledgeable fellows who have been appointed by a governing authority - either the head of state or the head of a corporation/college of some kind.

while a bucket shop gets paid to deliver someone else’s arms to you under the guise that they are your arms i cant put them into the same league because they are not knowledgeable about heraldry.

getting paid does not mean herald, even if it means professional, as they are getting paid. i would call them professional thiefs, but i might get into trouble there.

so for me a professional herald is one who is 1) truly knowledgeable of heraldry either for the realm into which he lives/works, or in general; 2) holds a position of trust/esteem within the heraldic community either for the realm into which is lives/works, or in general (like in a college); 3) and if employed by a governmental body may also act in official capacities for a government; 4) and he also might be a heraldic artist.

Donnchadh;53188 wrote:

Fred, PM Rob and ask him. Rob is a great fellow.

Actually, I made Rob’s acquaintance when I first started participating in the AHS forums. I went ahead and contacted M. Granier directly, though, and really like his work, so I’ll probably wind up going with him for my stationery emblazonment.

gselvester;53175 wrote:

Also, even the College of Arms in London is a private organization and the heralds, while appointed by the Crown, are not connected to the government. They are "employed" by the head of state but not by the state.

. . . Which should console any who are apt to feel self-conscious about "merely" having their arms recorded or registered with a domestic, private association.

Dcgb7f;53176 wrote:

Best I can figure its either (a) someone who gets paid for doing heraldry, or (b) someone with a fancy title and a nice seal to go along with it. Since option (a) would seem to imply that bucket shops are professional heralds, I’m inclined to go with option (b).

I was referring more to a third option (c) a person who is appointed herald by a recognized head of state or is else recognized by national law as a herald.

Nick B II;53182 wrote:

You can use your mother’s name, with a minimum of fuss. You cannot use your mother’s arms, in the UK, without a lot of fuss.

I seem to recall, perhaps incorrectly, that technically using your mother’s surname and certainly her father’s arms requires a royal license.  Usually, however, a deed poll seems to be acceptable for a surname change in the UK.

I also recall that in civil law countries as used in most of continental Europe that surname changes are actually quite difficult to effectuate.  In France for example you have to show real pressing need for the name change.  Thus, requests for surname changes are not always granted.

My point is while that the British law of arms may violate EU human rights law, the same argument can be made regarding the continental law’s restrictions on the change of surnames - self-identity being a basic human right.  If heraldry does not fall within the ambit of EU law because it is seen to violate EU human rights law, then the same argument might be applicable to continental laws pertaining to the use of surnames.

What’s my motivation in pursuing this line of logic?  I’d just like to see international bodies respecting national laws regarding heraldry. 

eploy;53203 wrote:

I seem to recall, perhaps incorrectly, that technically using your mother’s surname and certainly her father’s arms requires a royal license. Usually, however, a deed poll seems to be acceptable for a surname change in the UK.

The common law rule is that you may use whatever name you like, provided you don’t do so for fraudulent purposes. The deed poll (a unilateral declaration filed with a registrar of deeds or similar official) merely puts the decision to change a name on record, which undoubtedly simplifies the process of getting things like drivers licenses, passports, etc., in a different name than the one on your birth certificate. What requires a royal license is the use of the arms, normally in connection with a name and arms clause of a will (so-and-so inherits the estate provided he assumes the name and arms of the testator). Simply using your mother’s surname doesn’t require a royal license, or indeed any legal action at all.

Quote:

I also recall that in civil law countries as used in most of continental Europe that surname changes are actually quite difficult to effectuate. In France for example you have to show real pressing need for the name change. Thus, requests for surname changes are not always granted.

My point is while that the British law of arms may violate EU human rights law, the same argument can be made regarding the continental law’s restrictions on the change of surnames - self-identity being a basic human right. If heraldry does not fall within the ambit of EU law because it is seen to violate EU human rights law, then the same argument might be applicable to continental laws pertaining to the use of surnames.

I never said that heraldry violates European human rights law. I said that (a) it isn’t one of the areas of life over which the EU is given authority, and (b) if the EU were given jurisdiction over heraldry, it would open the door to managing heraldry in the context of EU human rights law, or to the lowest common denominator of heraldic practice.

Quote:

What’s my motivation in pursuing this line of logic? I’d just like to see international bodies respecting national laws regarding heraldry.

I don’t see how they could either respect or disrespect national laws on heraldry; they simply pay no attention to such issues at all.  I prefer it that way.  I think of diversity as a good thing.  I’d rather not see supranational bodies impose a single logic that would crush national traditions where they differ from some abstract ideal of practice.

gselvester;53175 wrote:

Also, even the College of Arms in London is a private organization and the heralds, while appointed by the Crown, are not connected to the government. They are "employed" by the head of state but not by the state.

My understanding of the situation is somewhat different.  The College of Arms may be a "private" corporation, but its members are officers of the Crown, i.e., the British state.  They are chosen by the Earl Marshal, a great officer of state, and act under his authority.  I believe their commissions are issued under the great seal of the UK.

The College of Arms doesn’t grant arms—the kings of arms do.

Two things contribute to the confusion on this matter.

The first is the British use of the term "government" in the specifically British sense of referring to the Prime Minister and his political colleagues who are responsible to Parliament—the Ministry, the Cabinet.  The heralds do not fall under the authority of the government in this restrictive sense.  But in the broader sense of "government" as understood in the US, referring to the entire set of institutions by which a society is governed, the heralds are part of the government.

The other is the British tradition of assigning certain governmental and quasi-governmental functions to more or less private corporations.  For instance, the assaying of precious metals is entrusted by law to the private Goldsmith’s Company, one of the London guilds.  Perhaps a better parallel with the College of Arms, however, are the Inns of Court, through which barristers are qualified and operate.  The four Inns are private corporations like the College of Arms, but their senior members, or Queen’s Counsel, are appointed by the Crown by letters patent on the recommendation of a member of the Government.  The ambiguous position of such institutions when seen from outside adds to the difficulty of categorizing the College as either public or private.

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