Joseph McMillan;105185 wrote:
I meant, does it matter what the king thinks of Floresta’s standing?
Either Floresta’s certifications have legal force or they don’t. The king’s signature can’t affect the matter one way or the other.
Right, but it would seem that the king gives Floresta’s certifications moral force, and I’m guessing that those who seek them feel that that’s validity enough.
I would extend the "does it matter?" question further, repeating my comment from FB:
Why would the head of a sovereign entity with inherited arms granted by the College of Arms request a certification of arms by a regional chronicler of a Spanish province with questionable authority to certify personal arms?
Maybe he didn’t request it; maybe La Floresta offered. Just a guess.
kimon;105188 wrote:
I would extend the "does it matter?" question further, repeating my comment from FB:
Why would the head of a sovereign entity with inherited arms granted by the College of Arms request a certification of arms by a regional chronicler of a Spanish province with questionable authority to certify personal arms?
Piggybacking on Joe’s guess: If Floresta offered it and the offer was accepted, it would tend to lend some kind of legitimacy (again, moral rather than legal) to his activities.
On the other hand, one can imagine the Grand Master of a Roman Catholic order of chivalry setting more store by recognition from a Catholic monarchy than recognition by a Protestant one.
I guess it would be tempting for a grand master of the Knights of Malta to try and polish up the arms granted to his stonemason ancestor for building fortifications for Henry VIII.
Unless we believe the more glorious version of the descent of the Berties.
Wilfred Leblanc;105191 wrote:
Piggybacking on Joe’s guess: If Floresta offered it and the offer was accepted, it would tend to lend some kind of legitimacy (again, moral rather than legal) to his activities.
On the other hand, one can imagine the Grand Master of a Roman Catholic order of chivalry setting more store by recognition from a Catholic monarchy than recognition by a Protestant one.
I’m missing something. I don’t follow you when you assert that the GM would be looking for recognition from anyone else. He is the Sovereign of the Order. He is a Catholic Prince. Why would he seek recognition from another Prince Catholic or otherwise? That would be like the King of the Netherlands looking for recognition from the Queen of England.
Quote:
The Spanish Council of State has been very clear that the King of Spain doesn’t have the kind of catch-all royal prerogatives that the British monarch is allowed to claim. He can do what the constitution says, or what the parliament allows him to do consistent with the constitution, and granting personal arms isn’t one of them. The decision was dated 21 Oct 2004. It concerned the request of a nobiliary association called the Ilustre Solar de Valdeosera for the king to confirm its right to use its ancient arms.
I can only recall seeing pictures of four of these "signed documents" on the internet (not sure what to call them). Three of them (the Conde de los Alixares [1995], Admiral Fernando Poole Perez-Pardo [1993] and the Conde de Latores [1992]) all appear to date before the 2004 decision mentioned above. What I find interesting is that Festing’s document was signed after the 2004 decision (I think in 2008, but certainly not before he became the Grand Master of the SMOM). I had wondered if Juan Carlos stopped signing such documents after the 2004 decision, but I guess the answer is no.
Here are some images of the other three:
http://heraldryjunkyard.tumblr.com/post/71812725531
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gTQCiRKlM-U/TPg1-3S7xcI/AAAAAAAASgE/bIApcxlHHOA/s1600/C+13.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gTQCiRKlM-U/TPg03ZU_3zI/AAAAAAAASf4/Jx0Fapb5du4/s1600/C+12.jpg
gselvester;105193 wrote:
I’m missing something. I don’t follow you when you assert that the GM would be looking for recognition from anyone else. He is the Sovereign of the Order. He is a Catholic Prince. Why would he seek recognition from another Prince Catholic or otherwise? That would be like the King of the Netherlands looking for recognition from the Queen of England.
If you don’t follow, perhaps it’s because I didn’t assert anything as invidious as what you’re inferring. I don’t imagine that the GM was "looking for" recognition at all, but that he was either pleased to accept it (and by all means, choose a more palatable synonym for "recognition") when it was offered freely or (just possibly) wished to communicate respect for the crown of Spain by pursuing certification by Floresta on his own.
Joseph McMillan;105192 wrote:
I guess it would be tempting for a grand master of the Knights of Malta to try and polish up the arms granted to his stonemason ancestor for building fortifications for Henry VIII.
Unless we believe the more glorious version of the descent of the Berties.
We’re talking about Matthew Festing here, not Andrew Bertie, right?
kimon;105188 wrote:
I would extend the "does it matter?" question further, repeating my comment from FB:
Why would the head of a sovereign entity with inherited arms granted by the College of Arms request a certification of arms by a regional chronicler of a Spanish province with questionable authority to certify personal arms?
The only reasons I can fathom are A) to support the mission of the Cronista and B) to support the prerogatives historically claimed by the king of Spain.
The GM certainly didn’t need the King’s permission to bear his arms. Perhaps the signed certificate was essentially a courtesy girt from one sovereign to another?
Michael F. McCartney;105199 wrote:
The GM certainly didn’t need the King’s permission to bear his arms. Perhaps the signed certificate was essentially a courtesy girt from one sovereign to another?
Of course the GM needed no permission from Juan Carlos to bear his existing, inherited arms, but accepting the gift (if that’s a safe way to characterize whatever happened) was not a neutral response.
Of course not; but if my suggestion is correct, the Courtesy was between the head of the SMOM and the King of Spain; the Marquis of Floresta was merely the artist who crafted the gift.
Michael F. McCartney;105201 wrote:
Of course not; but if my suggestion is correct, the Courtesy was between the head of the SMOM and the King of Spain; the Marquis of Floresta was merely the artist who crafted the gift.
So, a bit similar to the President of the United States accepting a grant of arms from the Chief Executive of Ireland, prepared by the CHI?
Michael F. McCartney;105199 wrote:
The GM certainly didn’t need the King’s permission to bear his arms. Perhaps the signed certificate was essentially a courtesy girt from one sovereign to another?
Like a courtesy gift to Presidents Kennedy, Clinton…
