Beginning Design

 
Dale Challener Roe
 
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Dale Challener Roe
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29 March 2008 10:33
 

I’m in the very first steps of creating a first draft of my arms.  But in doing so I have a couple of simple questions that I’m sure the denizens of this forum could answer in their sleep.  Here goes:

1. I’ve read posts where members obliquely refer to online artwork repositories, especially vector graphics (but I’ll take anything I can get).  Is there a list of these sites somewhere?

 

2. What are the basic rules of quartering?  I have 1 COA in my family, and one in my fiancée’s family that I would like to incorporate into my arms.  However, in one case I have no right to bear the arms, and in the other I have no clue if I have a right.  A first thought would be to use these two arms as 2 of 4 quarters and create something original for the other 2 quarters.  But with the use of quartering to denote combined arms I’m not sure if this is allowed.  Or is there some other traditional way to show "allegiance" by use of arms that I have a tenuous relation to.

 

3.  A couple of the charges I’m considering for my arms are charges that I’ve seen nowhere, or in other cases very seldom.  In the books I have I can find no names for these charges.  So is are there some sites that include lists of heraldic terms, particularly obscure ones?

 

I think that’s it for now, although I’m sure I’ll be asking for more help in the future.

 
Terry
 
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Terry
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29 March 2008 10:58
 

Hi Dale,

I think I can help some on questions 1 and 3.  As per question 2, I will leave that to those far more knowledgeable then myself.

 

1.  Heraldic vector and clip art -

 

http://vector-images.com/

http://www.heraldry-clipart.com/

 

Also a ton of images pop up in google images if you type "heralcic vector images"

I know there are a ton more just can’t think right now.

 

3. There are a few good Heralic Dictionaries that I believe will help you here. I have posted a couple below.

 

Pimbley’s Dictionary

 

http://www.rarebooks.nd.edu/digital/heraldry/index.html

 

Oh…concerning obscure charges….we have a lot of artistic talent here - if you can describe it, someone may be able to draw it for you.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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29 March 2008 11:36
 

Quartered shields are very tricky, as I gather you have already figured out. I think at best, however, using these two arms as quarters of your own would be in bad taste.  Are there any similarities in the two?  For example there is a Mansfield coat of arms that is Argent a chevron between three maunches Sable.  Were I to have an actual connection to the armiger (which I am nearly certain I do not), I might look at it and the Henshaw arms I do have a connection to, Argent a chevron between three heronshaws Sable, and start with a white shield and a black chevron between three black charges.  You can also just take various ordinaries and charges from the arms, use their color schemes, perhaps borrow from one of their crests.

We could probably help you come up with some good ideas if you were to share these arms with us.

 

As to the obscure charges, keep in mind that your arms are the blazon not the picture of it. So try to keep it something that an artist unfamiliar with the item would have no trouble figuring out how to draw.  And take care not to name it something that in another culture might mean something very different. :oops:

 
 
Terry
 
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Terry
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29 March 2008 11:39
 

Dale - If you would like a template with shield, helm, mantle and torse you are welcome to use the line drawing (first image) in my "Playing with Illustrator" post.  I am going to be making a change to it today since I made a mistake on the mantle, but keep an eye out and you’ll see the new image in about an hour.

 
Dale Challener Roe
 
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Dale Challener Roe
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29 March 2008 12:20
 

kmansfield;56368 wrote:

We could probably help you come up with some good ideas if you were to share these arms with us.


Ken,

 

Here they are:

 

The first (gules, three lambs paschal or) is somewhere back in my family, though I almost assuredly have no claim to them.  And truth be told, even if I did they’re not really me, but I’d at least like a allusion to them.

 

The second, (argent a pale Sable three lions passant argent) is from the family of my fiancée. Though the family hasn’t used them in quite some time, other than passing down some family documents, her father is almost surely entitled to them (She’s done much genealogical research into her family—helped by the fact that her family have been members of the DAR for many years).  Now of course since they’re hers and not mine I know I’m not entitled to them, but as we’ve been close friends for so long I’d like to incorporate something of them into my own.

http://www.dcroe.com/images/arms.pnghttp://www.dcroe.com/images/armstaylor.png

 
Terry
 
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Terry
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29 March 2008 13:00
 

The first thing that came to mind is this.  I have not checked to see if this is a current COA of someone, but might help with the idea of combining the two without quartering.

 

Quick clipart/photochop compilation…

 

http://omega1.us/personal/new/dale.jpg

 
PBlanton
 
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PBlanton
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29 March 2008 13:10
 

Dale,

1.  I regularly use http://www.heraldicclipart.com/catalog/index1.html.  Many are .bmp files, but I normally use MS Paint when beginning a project.

 

2.  The "basic rules" of quartering is that it is a heraldic combination of the armigerous father and armigerous mother on one shield.  The father’s arms reside in the first and fourth quarters, and the mother’s arms reside in the remaining second and third quarters.  beyond this, proper quartering gets quite complex.  If you have no claim to one of the arms in question, I would strongly advise not quartering them with the other.  Instead, I would rather see you combine the two into a new coa like the nice example Terry shows.  My first thought after seeing the two shields you posted was "Argent upon a pale Sable three paschal lambs Or".

 

3.  If you could describe the charges (or better yet—post pictures of them) I know at least one of our members would be able to identify them for you.

 

Take care,

 
 
Dale Challener Roe
 
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Dale Challener Roe
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29 March 2008 13:28
 

PBlanton;56374 wrote:

If you could describe the charges (or better yet—post pictures of them) I know at least one of our members would be able to identify them for you.


Among some of the more mundane charges I am considering are the roebuck (which I understand is generally only distinguished from that of a normal stag by the name) for my last name of Roe, and a single white wave (which I guess would be Or) as my fiancée’s name is Jennifer which means "white wave".

 

Then I’m considering either a quill pen (which I’ve seen once or twice), or an ink well (which I have not seen) from my passion for writing.

 

Then I’m thinking of using a Mobius Strip, for it’s relation to math and science and it’s symbolism for a paradox.

 

I’ve considered and discarded the charges of a bagpipe (as too complex) and a bow and arrow (because while it still interests me, it’s not a hobby I’ve actively practiced in quite some time).

 

I realize that ALL of this would prove quite a jumble, so I will be paring it down as I come up wih various drafts, but I haven’t made any firm decisions as to what I will use.

 
Dale Challener Roe
 
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Dale Challener Roe
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29 March 2008 13:30
 

Terry;56373 wrote:

The first thing that came to mind is this…


That was the FIRST thing that came to mind?  Wow, I have a L-O-T to learn.wink

 
Terry
 
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Terry
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29 March 2008 13:46
 

dcroe05;56377 wrote:

That was the FIRST thing that came to mind?  Wow, I have a L-O-T to learn.smile  I also still have a L-O-T to learn!

 
PBlanton
 
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PBlanton
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29 March 2008 14:16
 

dcroe05;56375 wrote:

Among some of the more mundane charges I am considering are the roebuck (which I understand is generally only distinguished from that of a normal stag by the name) for my last name of Roe, and a single white wave (which I guess would be Or) as my fiancée’s name is Jennifer which means "white wave".

I like the canting idea of the Roebuck! Very clever. :D Too many charges makes for poor heraldry.  Remember the ideas of simplicity and uniqueness when designing new arms.

Take care,

 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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29 March 2008 23:37
 

That’s a lot of charges and I’m sure we can help you incorporate some of them. Here’s an idea with the Roe Buck (though for the sake of mock-up I have used a stag) taking the place of the Pascal lambs and taking one of the lions from the pale and putting it on a chief.

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/roe_ver1.gif

 

or you could even put all three lions on the chief.

 

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/roe_ver1b.gif

 
 
Dale Challener Roe
 
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Dale Challener Roe
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30 March 2008 02:08
 

PBlanton;56384 wrote:

I like the canting idea of the Roebuck! Very clever.


I’ve even toyed with the idea of taking the canting a step further and putting the roebuck on a pile (signifying a valley—or Dale)


PBlanton;56384 wrote:

If you wanted the wave to be white, it should be Argent instead of Or.


:banghead: I make that mistake a lot when I’m not paying attention.

 
Dale Challener Roe
 
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Dale Challener Roe
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30 March 2008 02:21
 

kmansfield;56406 wrote:

That’s a lot of charges and I’m sure we can help you incorporate some of them.


wink  I know, I know…

 

I like the second one…here’s a question though.  If any other animal bears the flag like the lamb paschal, is it termed "___ paschal", or is it termed as "carrying a flag" or something similar?  I ask because my understanding of "paschal" is that it means "of easter" and not the pose per se.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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30 March 2008 09:04
 

dcroe05;56415 wrote:

I like the second one…here’s a question though.  If any other animal bears the flag like the lamb paschal, is it termed "___ paschal", or is it termed as "carrying a flag" or something similar?  I ask because my understanding of "paschal" is that it means "of easter" and not the pose per se.


The blazon for the buck would be something like a Roe Buck statant proper supporting with the dexter foreleg over the shoulder a…. (Although someone is likely to point out that the clip art I used is of a stag trippant, which you could also do. Trippant basically means sauntering along.)

 

And here is a better mock-up of the first variation, albeit it a bit fuzzy.

 

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/roe_ver1a.gif

 

And the second (also fuzzy).

 

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/roe_ver1b2.gif

 

A good artist will use the space provided without leaving too much "white space" which of course here is black.

 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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30 March 2008 09:46
 

While on the subject of "white space" here is how I would change the shield that Phil used as an example of quill and ink. My apologies to the original artist, but I think this is an excellent illustration of the point and I hope this will help you as you comtemplate your design.

Before: http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/modernheraldrycom.gif  After: http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/modernheraldrycommine.gif