Okay…well I have couple questions actually.

Yes, I picked the obvious badge for me, my crest

First, Do the same tincture rules apply to a badge as they do to arms?  I have two samples below, first one I will call 1 and the second 2.  Is 1 acceptable?  ie….sable on gules.  Or is 2 a better way to display it?

http://omega1.us/personal/new/badge1.bmphttp://omega1.us/personal/new/badge.bmp

Second, Should I change it up a bit…add say a stemmed and leafed rose in the sea-lion’s hand?

Terry, I don’t have an answer for you other than to say I’ve seen sable on another tincture more often than many of the color on color combinations.

And, if you’re concerned about the sable on gules in #1, you might also be concerned about argent on argent in #2.

Dale Challener Roe;57141 wrote:

And, if you’re concerned about the sable on gules in #1, you might also be concerned about argent on argent in #2.

Very true my friend…it didn’t dawn on me until you mentioned it

Personally, I’d just use the crest freestanding, that is, without a roundel at all.  Your design is unique enough to stand on its own merits.

Jonathan R. Baker;57143 wrote:

Personally, I’d just use the crest freestanding, that is, without a roundel at all.  Your design is unique enough to stand on its own merits.

You know…I must admit I didn’t even think of that.  I know….not enough coffee.  Thank you Jonathan!

Jonathan R. Baker;57143 wrote:

Personally, I’d just use the crest freestanding, that is, without a roundel at all.  Your design is unique enough to stand on its own merits.

I’d have to agree.

Terry,

You have the same problem I do with the lack of coffee, must be the old Navy influence.

As to the badge, what about considering some variation of the trident alone, say a trident sable, fouled argent or some such? :!:

Respectfully,

Rob

If you do feel attached to a round badge, you may wish to place the sea lion on a rose, either with or without the trident, depending upon how you feel about Sable on Gules.  I think it would make for a striking badge design.  In any of these designs, by the way, I think the Sable would "pop" a lot better if the Gules was a lighter shade.

well, i’m not sure i should comment on this as i, despite being rather traditional, though not a purist, went with two badges that had nothing to do with my crest or the arms strictly speaking.

if you have to pick one, however, i pick #1. the Sable of the trident could be lightened up by using either a 70%, 80% or 90% gray solution instead of black and highlights to make it even brighter in order to give off more of an impression of contrast from the Gules background. as Mr. Wood, a Master, says in his book gray is routinely used as gray appears black in emblazonments. see de Bruin and Foppoli, both Masters, for examples of this technique. this is a variation of David’s advice of lightening up the tone of the red. either would work well really.

of course, a similar tactic could be taken for #2 in that you could do what Mr. Andersen, a Master, did for some of his works and make the Argent of the sea-lion either a light to medium silver and leave the background as "white" so it stands out more too. check his website for examples of the use of silver/gray for Argent as it is quite striking IMO and yes you can still have a highlight of white on the silver/gray and see it clearly so it would be the same for your background vs. sea-lion as well IMO again ref his website for an illustration of that.

again, take it for what it’s worth as i chose to go a different route for my badges…crazy Irish!

Jonathan R. Baker;57143 wrote:

Personally, I’d just use the crest freestanding, that is, without a roundel at all.  Your design is unique enough to stand on its own merits.

Jonathan is correct on this point. The use of a roundel behind so many badges comes from the desire by early heralds to show the livery colours upon which badge would be worn. Over time the reasoning for displaying the badge on a roudel was lost and it became part of the badge. Later generations, thinking that all Medieval and Tudor badges consisted of a roundel and an heraldic device, designed their badges with a roundel as the foundation of the badge.

Tincture rules are not as strict with crests and badges, in other words elements outside of the field are not held to the same standards though one should avoid making obvious or pre-meditated violations. If a badge were to be displayed on a roundel depicting the actual liveries of the armiger it would not be in violation of the tincture rule.

And of course, the trident fouled that I suggested, or almost anything else for that matter, can stand on it’s own when done well.  Heck, what else do you have in you life man?

Terry, your original idea for a crest IIRC was to have the sealion holding the trident. That would work well for a badge. You could charge the sealion with a rose, have a rose pendant from a collar around its neck or be piercing a rose with the trident (just as a warning to your kids).

Rob;57155 wrote:

Of course, it’s pretty obvious from other threads that there’s great discussion concerning how ridgedly those rules are, or are not, followed, here in America or else where.

My comments regarding the guidelines for a badge were rather universal in nature. They could be equally applied to heraldic badges used in England, France, Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Spain which are the few European countries with a heraldic badge tradition. Each of these traditions vary somewhat from each other, for example the Italian badges almost universal inclusion of a motto or phrase with the badge.

I would suggest that when a device is not visibly heraldic, that is, not composed of accepted heraldic elements nor following accepted heraldic standards, it is not to be classified as a badge but rather a modern logo.

Kenneth Mansfield;57158 wrote:

You could charge the sealion with a rose, have a rose pendant from a collar around its neck or be piercing a rose with the trident (just as a warning to your kids).

A mediocre English tradition to be avoided by good heralds. The Canadian heralds have taken this habit of hanging pedants around the necks of all sorts of creatures to an even more distasteful level, adorning corpulent sea mammals with gaudy jewelry just to difference them. If any country in the world already uses a sea-lion (or walrus, narwhal, harp seal, leopard seal) charged with a rose it is Canada.

Sorry I haven’t responded earlier…can you believe they have had the nerve to make me work??!!??

So if I am reading this correctly, If I use my current crest, it should stand alone, nothing else really needed.

If I design something else (which might be kind of fun), try to develop something that can also stand on it’s own.

Rob - What else do I have in my life??  what, you mean besides work and taking care of children??  :D I am a big martial artist….I love history, naval history and Scottish History…wait…those can be under the same category…oh well.

Let me see if I can come up with something with the trident fouled, sea-lion holding or entwined with a rose, trident impaling a rose or one of the million other options that I am sure will pop up!

Thank you all for your guidance and ideas.

So…I’ve been thinking about this…besides my crest being used as a badge, I was thinking of one that alluded to the shield also.  I might come up with something else later…but this is pretty good I think.  I was also thinking of a trident with two roses by the center point (slipped and leaved).  The stems (slips)  wrapping down and around the rest of the trident "fouling" it.  Thoughts??

http://omega1.us/personal/misc/badge1.bmp

Let me know your thoughts…weather good or bad