Changing my arms…

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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18 April 2008 15:32
 

This (whichever wording) appears to be a prime candidate for the herald’s CYA catch-phrase: "...as appeareth more plainly in the margin."

 
George Lucki
 
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George Lucki
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18 April 2008 18:01
 

De gustibus. Why fix what is not broken?

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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18 April 2008 23:33
 

Based on many, many Google searches and thanks to the many blazons and examples of civic heraldry at www.civicheraldry.co.uk, I believe the best blazon is Vert a barrulet dancetty of three points downward throughout....

Thanks, everyone, for your input—even those of you who disagree. wink

 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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12 May 2008 12:52
 

I sent an enquiry to the College of Arms to see what they might offer and actually got a response, which I thought I would share. I changed the tinctures to protect the innocent.

From my enquiry:


Quote:

...For the following item I have offered Gules a barrulet dancetty of three points downward throughout Or. It has also been suggested to me Gules a barrulet dancetty reversed throughout.  Someone has even offered Gules three piles palewise conjoined in chief throughout Or voided of the field....

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/enquiry.gif


Response from Clive Cheesman, Rouge Dragon Pursuivant:


Quote:

To my mind this is a red shield with a gold zigzag on it, and if at all possible the blazon should reflect that basic impression. I would therefore simply say Gules a Barrulet dancetty throughout Or. I see no need to say ‘reversed’ because I don’t think there is a correct way up for a barrulet dancetty - and if it were drawn up the other way I don’t think we would be looking at a different coat of arms, just a different interpretation of the same one. I might, in line with intermittent recent practice, enumerate the points by saying it is ‘of two upward and three downward points’, which leaves open only the question of where, on the vertical axis, the zigzag emerges and disappears at the side of the shield. But even this (which resembles your suggestion), I feel, risks going too far. When ones see how widely the same medieval coat of arms might vary in interpretation, while still retaining its undeniable identity, one becomes wary of ‘overblazoning’.

There is, in short, no right answer and we often have prolonged discussions about how to blazon even quite simple designs like this; but I tihnk we would, for our own practical purposes (which do not bind anyone else), resolve it in the way I have described.

 

 
 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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12 May 2008 13:45
 

great response…great that they responded.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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12 May 2008 14:04
 

Well, hooray, hurrah, and huzza to Rouge Dragon for a very—dare I say incredibly—sensible response that is a refreshing antidote to some of the blazonry pedantry we sometimes encounter!  Specific plaudits for:


Quote:

if at all possible the blazon should reflect that basic impression [of the graphic appearance of the arms]

Quote:

I don’t think there is a correct way up for a barrulet dancetty - and if it were drawn up the other way I don’t think we would be looking at a different coat of arms, just a different interpretation of the same one.

Quote:

When ones see how widely the same medieval coat of arms might vary in interpretation, while still retaining its undeniable identity, one becomes wary of ‘overblazoning’.

Quote:

There is, in short, no right answer


And, last but far from least:


Quote:

our own practical purposes (which do not bind anyone else)


Someone carve this in stone for the next time someone feels tempted to deliver the lecture on why there is one and only one way to blazon X.

 
dr.h.roth
 
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dr.h.roth
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13 May 2008 16:25
 

A refreshingly simple answer!

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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10 June 2010 17:33
 

Here I go dredging this up, but the recent tinkering with an assumption document got me thinking of my blazon…again. In light of Mr. Cheesman’s response to my inquiry, and given that I don’t have any problem with either of the interpretations below (it is supposed to represent a rope-tension drum, which can of course be viewed from many angles), I am dropping "reversed" from the blazon. It shall now and forever be Vert a Barrulet dancetty throughout Argent on a chief Gules a Celtic Cross between two Mullets of seven points inverted Argent.


<div class=“bbcode_center” >
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/886/barruletsidebyside.png
</div>

 
 
David E. Cohen
 
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David E. Cohen
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11 June 2010 08:28
 

Thread necromancy!:aiee:

Seriously, are these two shields really the same heraldically?  I need to think about this.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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11 June 2010 20:28
 

Question was asked, "Are those two shields really the same heraldically?"

I’d approach it from a different angle—rather than are they sufficiently similar to be the same arms, I’d ask if they were sufficiently different to be separate arms?  My answer—others may differ, & everyone has the right to cling to their own errors!:)—would be that they are not sufficiently distinct that I could properly assume as my own unique arms, whichever one Kenneth chooses not to use.  The difference, in this case, would IMO be mere artistic license.  Even if Kenneth, for whatever reason, were to tie down one version through a precise blazon, the other one still isn’t sufficiently different to matter heraldically.

 

My views of course.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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11 June 2010 22:12
 

David E. Cohen;76955 wrote:

Thread necromancy!:aiee:

Seriously, are these two shields really the same heraldically? I need to think about this.


Well, Rouge Croix Pursuivant (now Richmond Herald) said they are.  See higher up in the thread.

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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12 June 2010 03:59
 

The de’ Medici are a rather famous example of arms being being the same but not, using anywhere from five to twelve roundels in their arms through the generations.

Not specifying the number of points and allowing either precedence or preference to dictate the rendition should work well-enough here.

 
dr.h.roth
 
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dr.h.roth
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15 June 2010 09:47
 

I don’t like ‘over-specification’. Leave it up to the heraldic artist to deliver a creative and pleasing rendition.

 
llnyny
 
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llnyny
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15 June 2010 18:11
 

I think your current blazon is fine. You certainly have plenty of emblazonments to offer any heraldic artist, who should ask for examples of your intentions. And there is now historic precedent for how you want them emblazoned. The only thing an HA might do, which would be against your wishes, is to create a Barrulet dancetty that did not fill the field.

If you wanted to change it, could it be blazoned Vert three Piles Vert fimbriated Argent?

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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15 June 2010 21:49
 

llnyny;77061 wrote:

If you wanted to change it, could it be blazoned Vert three Piles Vert fimbriated Argent?


I personally don’t think so. The original blazon as reached by a consensus on these fora was Vert three piles palewise throughout conjoined in chief Argent voided of the field. I don’t feel that this, or your suggestion truly capture what I intend. The barrulet is intended to mimic the rope on a rope tension drum, so it should be sitting on top of the field (the drum). Your suggestion would put it in the right place, but would give some "height" to the piles that I don’t wish to exist. The original blazon, put the white lines in the wrong places if (in my opinion) rendered faithfully to the blazon.