Info on Irish Nobility & their arms sought

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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10 April 2008 14:44
 

In doing my research of Irish nomenclature, which started more than a decade ago, I of course came across lots of tidbits of info on the Irish nobility, as well as heraldry, which is how I got really into heraldry even though I had always liked what I thought was heraldry (bucketshop heraldry) in other parts of Europe.

So, I am wondering if anyone has info on any, as many as you know of, Irish nobles throughout Europe? By Irish nobles I mean the descendents of the Wild Geese (as different from the descendents of the “Flight of the Earls,” which I would also appreciate info on to go along with what I already have on them). This would include native Irish and “Old-English” Irish, or Norman-Irish if you prefer, who fled along with 50,000 of their fellow Irishmen to Europe after William of Orange’s struggle for the UK crown.

 

There are countless thousands and some of them from the Wild Geese and the Earls that I am aware of a few like: O’Rourke of Russia, O’Neill Mor of Spain, O’Donel Tirconnell of Spain, O’Donnell Tirconnell of Austria, Count O’Toole of France [now in abeyance], Count O’Sullivan Beare de Grasse (sp?) of Belgium, Marquis O’Higgins of Spain, Count MacAuley of Austria, MacMahon dukes of Magenta, etc.

 

But, I would like to start assembling more info, including their arms, on the rest of them. So, if you know of any in any part of Europe or Asia I would appreciate it very much if you could share it with me. I appreciate all info anyone can supply even if you think it be the smallest and worthless little detail, please share it with me. Thank you.

 
dr.h.roth
 
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dr.h.roth
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10 April 2008 16:43
 

Hi Denny,

try this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Nugent

 

This is about Laval Nugent, who became field marshal in the Austrian army.

I became aware of him since he had bought Trsat Castle in Rijeka, Croatia (back then, part of the Austro-Hungarian empire).This castle is about 8 miles from where I live now. I have been there several times, but do not recall seeing any heraldry associated with the count. Next time I’m there, I will look again.

Hope it helps.

 
dr.h.roth
 
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dr.h.roth
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10 April 2008 16:49
 

Hi Denny,

I did some digging around and found this picture of the Nugent arms:

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Rijeka-Trsat-Hill_fort-11.JPG

 
dr.h.roth
 
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dr.h.roth
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10 April 2008 16:52
 

And here the so called serpent of Trsat Castle, one of the supporters:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Rijeka056.jpg

 
dr.h.roth
 
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dr.h.roth
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10 April 2008 16:54
 
 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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10 April 2008 20:05
 

Denny,

Ramon Power y Giralt:

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/5125/ramonpowerposterwx1.th.jpg

 

A researcher in Spain alerted me to Ramon Power y Giralt of Puerto Rico.  The Spanish researcher had traced Ramon’s lineage to his Waterford ancestor.  He fled Ireland and received a Grant of Arms from James Terry, Athlone Pursuivant (Ulster King of Arm’s assistant who fled Ireland taking the official seals—King James made him Athlone Herald).  "Wild Goose" Power first went to France, if I recall, then made his home in Spain.  Either he, or his son went to Puerto Rico; the Power child born in Puerto Rico became Admiral and a Representative of Puerto Rico to Spain.  He died and is buried in Spain; PR was trying to repatriate his body.  For more information see Wiki.

 

I have a copy of the Armorial Bearings on my other computer and can send them next Monday.  Off the top of my head, they incorporate the "Irish de Poer" arms of Argent a chief indented Sable: Argent on a bend Azure three scallops of the Field, a chief indented Sable.

 

—Guy

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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10 April 2008 23:34
 

Am I correct in "reading" the arms to mean the bearer was a member of the SMOM and the Order of the Golden Fleece? What kind of coronet is that?


dr.h.roth;57102 wrote:

Hi Denny,

I did some digging around and found this picture of the Nugent arms:

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Rijeka-Trsat-Hill_fort-11.JPG

 

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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10 April 2008 23:38
 

Is this the same beast known as a wyvern, as in the wyvern gules of the various Drake arms?


dr.h.roth;57103 wrote:

And here the so called serpent of Trsat Castle, one of the supporters:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Rijeka056.jpg

 

 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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10 April 2008 23:51
 

Fred White;57121 wrote:

Am I correct in "reading" the arms to mean the bearer was a member of the SMOM and the Order of the Golden Fleece? What kind of coronet is that?


Golden Fleece, yes

SMOM, not sure—but there is a cross (Hmmmmm)

Crown:  I think a Fuerstenkrone—a prince’s crown

 

—Guy

 
Guy Power
 
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10 April 2008 23:53
 

Fred White;57122 wrote:

Is this the same beast known as a wyvern, as in the wyvern gules of the various Drake arms?


I think this one is a cockatrice: head of a rooster, body and tail of a dragon.

 

Wiki article here

 

—Guy

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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11 April 2008 01:09
 

Thank you all sooooo much Guy and Doc Roth! I love it! :D

As for the Count Nugent’s arms, the field of the arms is exactly that of the so-called "sept arms" of the Nugent family (Ermine, two bars Gules) and his supporters are also exactly the same as those of the Earl of Westmeath and Baron Devlin (on either side a cockatrice wings elevated and endorsed Vert, tails nowed, combed and wattled Gules). I find it most fascinating, though not surprising, that this is the case that this nobleman used exactly the same arms and supporters as the other. Hard to tell what is on the inescutcheon, but I will see what I can dig up.

 

Guy, I always thought that the situation of the Jacobite Athlone Herald was very interesting. For, even in those times he wrote to Ulster on a routine basis to obtain pedigree verification(s) for Wild Geese seeking admittance as officers into the armies of Europe and for the recognition of nobility for Irish nobles at European courts. They actually got along very well and Ulster did this for him over and over and over again! I believe Mr. O Comain wrote on this in his book, but it may have been one of the others I have too. It is a fascinating situation given the difficulties of those times IMO. And together with, as Dr. MacLysaght recounts in his works, Ulster being in the practice for a few hundred years of granting arms to different family’s of the same name from the same area without proof of actually being related by blood it is not surprising that I keep running into this practice of the basic arms being there as well as the crest and in this case supporters (which is what I’ve seen changed the most).

 

I am looking forward to reading of this new (for me) Power you showed me as I do with Nugent. Frankly just awesome.

 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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11 April 2008 01:27
 

Donnchadh;57134 wrote:

I am looking forward to reading of this new (for me) Power you showed me as I do with Nugent. Frankly just awesome.


That will probably be on Monday.  As I recall, the Power who approached Athlone needed two affidavits attesting to his family status; one was from his priest.  I think the affidavits stated Power was related to the de Poer branch which was Lord of Waterford.  I believe this Power also sought a commission in the Spanish service.

 

Cheers,

—Guy

 
Guy Power
 
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15 April 2008 17:22
 

Denny,

Here are Ramon Power y Giralt’s arms which I colorized:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4820/powerspanishcolorzs7.th.jpg

 

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9064/powerspanish1eb1.th.jpg

I’d like to get page 612 of this book!

 

 

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9392/powerspanish2nc0.th.jpg

Unfortunately I do not have page 277 of this book.  Page 279 lists, I believe, his parents and grandparents:

 

"3rd. John Power born in Waterford, and Mary Morgan born in Waterford

"4th.  Walter Power, Deputy General of County Waterford, Ireland"

 

Then goes on to mention his wife Maria-Josefa Giar

 
Guy Power
 
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15 April 2008 20:16
 

Hmmmmm .... in researching more I find that I’ve already written about this on another list in February 2007!  And, I had more information at the time:

=================

<...>

Pedro [Peter] Power was issued a Coat of Arms by James Terry on 30 January 1714. His modern blazon would be:

 

Argent a chief indented Sable surmounted of a bend Azure with three escallops Or, all within a bordure Or. Above the shield a helm and upon a wreath of colors set for Crest: A red deer caboshed and between the attires a Crucifix all Proper.

 

The "Argent chief indented Sable" and the crest belong to the main branch of le Poer/Power.

 

The Spanish blazon from which I extracted the blazon is below, and comes from an unsourced extract [ghp: see thumbnails in post #13, above].

 

=====Estas son las armas de la antiquisima y nobilisima familia de Power de castletowus, en el Condado de Watesfordia, en el Reino de Irlanda, la cual trae su origen en los muy grandes e ilustres Lordes y Barones de Doneyle en el mismo condado de Wesfordia, según lo se de personas fidedignas y de toda integridad y muy versadas en estos asuntos, el cual escudo consta a todos en el Real Archivo de Armas y se compone a saber: de un escudo en campo de plata con un encandillado por arriba

pintado de sable, o negro, con una banda azul que atraviesa sobre la cual se hallan puestas tres conchas de peregrino doradas y cercado el todo con un cerco de oro, sobre cuyo escudo se halla un morrión a celada adornada de un Berelete con los mismos colores o esmalies de que se compone el escudo, y surmontado de una cabeza de ciervo,

cortada por la nuca, en cuya eminencia se halla un crucifijo pintado a lo viro. Dado en Dublin en el Real Archivo de Su Magestad de Armas el dia treinta y uno del mes de enero del año del Señor de 1714, firmado, James Terris, Rey de Armas Así consta en el exp. de don Mariano Power

============

My attempt at translating using Bable Fish & on-line dictionaries:

 

These are the arms of the ancient and noble family of Power of Castletown, in the County of Waterford, the Kingdom of Ireland, which has its origin in the very great and illustrious Lords and Barons of Doneyle [Dunhill; Donoyle; etc.] in the same county of Wesfordia [Wexford], according to people trustworthy and full of integrity, and very knowledgeable in these subjects, which shield consist entirely in the Royal Archives of Arms and it is composed, that is to say: of shield in

field of silver with encandillado [in chief?] above painted sable, or black, with a blue band that crosses over upon which is placed three pilgrim’s shells gilded and enclosed overall with an border of gold, upon which shield is placed a Helm, over which is adorned of a Berelete [torque? lambrequin?] with such colors or enamels of which the shield is made up, and surmounted of the head of red deer cut at the nape of the neck, in whose eminence is a Crucifix painted as alive [proper]. Given in Dublin in the

Royal Archives of His Majesty of Arms the Thirty-first day of the month of January in the year of the Lord 1714—Signed, James Terry, King of Arms.

 

Thus it consists in exp. of Don Mariano Power

=======

 

Pedro [Peter] Power’s descendant, Ramon Power y Giralt (Royal Spanish Navy), settled in Puerto Rico and was made deputy to the Court of Spain ca. 1790; he died of yellow fever soon after, and was buried in Spain. Descendants of Ramon Power still live in Puerto Rico today and they, the Puerto Rican government, and the Smithsonian are trying to identify Ramon Power’s remains from amongst a group of unidentified skeletons (the grave was later moved and the remains placed in a group grave).

 

A partial pedigree in Spanish is found in Micheline Walsh’s final volume of Spanish Knights of Irish Origin, English foreword dated Nov. 1977:

 

Juan Power y Roudeha Kettstouun = Maria Morgan

....Pedro Power y Morgan = Francisca Dubernet y Gascq

.......Juan Bautista Power y Dubernet = Ana Maria de Morgan y Hoy

.............Joaquin Power y Morgan

 

Another partial pedigree is found yet again in another unsourced

Spanish extract [ghp: see thumbnails in post #13, above].

 

3º Juan Power, * Waterforcia, y Maria Morgan, * Waterforcia.

 

4º Goaltero Power, Diputado General del Condado de Waterforcia

(Irlanda).

 

 

Ostensibly, Pedro’s grandparents were Walter Power (Deputy General of Co. Waterford) and Roudeha Kettstouun, both born [*] in Waterford. I have read that the la Poers were infamous Sheriffs of Waterford in the 15th century, and wonder if the office of Sheriff is the same as "Deputy General"?

============

 

end of text.

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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16 April 2008 01:55
 

I’ve been meaning to respond to this thread for a while but I’m in the process of reorganising my books with all the chaos that that entails. Need a bigger house :-(

de Ruvigny’s "Jacobite Peerage" doesn’t list grants of arms but does list Declarations of Noblesse issued by Athlone. There isn’t one for Peter Power. The Power entries are:

 

DECLARATIONS OF NOBLESSE

 

1700. May 10: Delcaration that William O’Brien of Tullo Garnony and Cross, co. Limerick, is the son of Terence O’Brien and Elizabeth Power, Catholics, descended from the noble family of O’Brien of Cuonagh, in that county. (p199)

 

1733. Mar 27: Declaration of the noblesse of William de Fitzgibbon, Lieutenant Colonel in the French service, Governor of Isola, son of Maurice de Fitzgibbon and Emilia Power, and of his wife Anastasia, daughter of Florence Macarty and Anna Fitzgerald of Coblentz. (208 )

 

1739. April 3: Declaration of the noblesse of John Power, now of Liege, one of a family very ancient and noble on co. Waterford (p209)

 

1747. October 4: Declaration of the noblesse of William Power, captain in Ireland and Aide-de-camp to HSH the Duke of Modena, son of the late John Power, son of John Power Lord of Ballylinane and of Ballinebanoge, co. Waterford, and of Dame Mary O’Ryan of Limerick, which John Power was son of Marish Power, son of John Power, descended from Lord Power, Baron of Donoyle. (p210)

 

HOUSEHOLD APPOINTMENTS

 

1701. July 20: Robert Power, mentioned as King’s Counsel.(p218 )

 

1706. June 21: Robert Power, mentioned as King’s Counsel. (p222)

 

1742. July 7: James Power DD, Canon of the Collegiate Church of Mont Cassel in Flanders, to be on eof His Majesty’s Chaplains Extraordinary.

 

There are obviously a great many more entries for people of Irish descent but if anyone is interested in look-ups they are probably best taken off-board.

 

James

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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16 April 2008 02:21
 

This is a somewhat tangential and off-topic question, but does anyone familiar with Jacobite family histories have any suggestions for starting points for verifying the genealogy (and possibly the arms) of my ancestor James McDonald, b. 1796 in Limerick? My synthesis of family tradition surrounding him follows. I realize the bit about the brother joining the British navy seems incongruous and that much of the rest of it sounds a bit operatic, but so far, everything said of his life after leaving Ireland has turned out to be true:

James McDonald said that he was a descendant of Jacobites who bore significant losses at the battle of Culloden Moor. A further fourteen family members were executed by the Crown for treason, and the remainder fled to Ireland for safety as hopes for a Stuart restoration collapsed. It seems that James and a brother, (said to have been named Albert and later to have joined the British navy), were orphaned at a very early age when their parents, too, were executed by the Crown for treasonous activities of some kind—perhaps involvement in the Irish Uprising under Wolfe Tone in 1798, at which time James would have been two. The brothers were then raised in a monastery (or an orphanage run by a religious order), with young James vowing revenge on the individual whose betrayal resulted in his parents’ deaths. James trained for the priesthood, and may even have taken Holy Orders, but while still a very young man, it so happened that he did encounter the man who bore witness against his parents, whereupon he brained him with a shovel. It is not clear whether the man died or not, but in this way, James’ career in the priesthood was terminated. The monks at his abbey, taking pity on him (presumably because they were not particularly enamored of the Crown’s agents themselves), arranged for his passage to America.