Papal Nobility

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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02 May 2008 16:03
 

Quote:

To bring this thread back to heraldry, does anyone know if there were heraldic addiments of office that were used by the lay members of the Papal Court prior to its reform by Pope Paul VI?

David, it has always been about heraldry…either the actual particulars on augmentations/additaments, or the right to grant, or not grant, and on what authority etc. so what are you referring to? I’m lost on that.

I would like to know if anyone knows of titles being granted while Peter and his court were in France? If so, did it reflect heraldically, any connection to France like in the chiefs we were talking about, like a chief Azure, semi-de-lis OR, with crossed keys or a tiara or some other such thing, or were they the same as the ones George already mentioned?

 

It would be interesting to see if there were differences in the heraldic augmentations/additaments during that time to reflect the court and Peter being in France instead of the Vatican.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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02 May 2008 16:03
 

Yes, and what in all of this makes any of their heraldic achievements particular to someone who received a noble title from the Pope??? Where’s the heraldry? Otherwise this is just a catalogue of example after example of the fact that at one time in history (because it is no longer done) laypeople were given nobiliary titles by Popes.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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02 May 2008 16:25
 

Yes, well Rev. Selvester, I have seen heraldry throughout this thread in all of the talks. I may be wrong, of course, but have yet to see a post singularly on papal nobility without dealing with heraldry at some level, which is the point of this thread. So, it appears to me to be a thread entirely on heraldry regarding papal nobility as the thread says it is. And given the difficulty in finding examples of papal nobiliary augmentations in heraldry for posting I think it is fair game for the heraldry to be only in discussions at this point. Unless David would like to post images of the works in von Volbroth that you already discounted as Italian heraldry and not papal nobility heraldry and therefore something else all together. So, again, I am confused on how this one is not on target unlike the previous thread where you were correct that it drifted. In this one I see no drifting yet as it is all about papal nobility heraldic practices and therefore theory since we have yet to see much regarding it in pictorial form or in authoritative directives like one could find for ECOA and LL etc.

Now, as to images of heraldry here’s the arms of the fella with the MacSweeney connection I’ve already mentioned. He is Mr. Charles Russell Clayton Ross of Biggar, Baron of Biggar. An all around nice fellow and just a good guy.

 

http://heraldry-scotland.com/copgal/displayimage.php?pid=1256&fullsize=1

 

The arms for the MacSweeney marquis’ are included in the third quarter. Here is a part of his bio of his arms regarding this quarter:
Quote:

The MacSwiney arms were confirmed to my maternal grandfather by Ulster King of Arms, also in 1895. Pope Leo XIII created my grandfather Marquis in 1894. My mother became an heraldic heiress on the death of her brother the 2nd Marquis Mac Swiney of Mashanaglass K.M., whose only son Patrick pre-deceased him, aged only 28. I was very close to my uncle, an awe-inspiring and brilliant man with a great sense of humour and I am very proud to quarter his arms.


Now, this sounds to me as though Ulster confirmed an already existent COA and if so I can only assume that they were granted by some other authority. Now if that was the Vatican – I doubt it – or someone else I have no idea. Of course Ulster also confirmed arms in use unlike his contemporaries within the UK and didn’t only grant arms. So, it is possible these were arms that were assumed and used by the family and Ulster just confirmed them. I simply don’t know. I will PM Charles and ask him if he can aid us in this discussion on papal nobility heraldry…like if his grandfather’s arms were augmented with something that we don’t see here.

 

All info is found at the H.S.S.  and their image gallery in the members with Scottish arms section.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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02 May 2008 18:33
 

Charles Ross of Biggar’s arms are here:

http://heraldry-scotland.com/copgal/albums/userpics/10001/normal_ross-charles.jpg

 

(From the HSS members gallery)

 

The MacSwiney quartering is the third:  "Per pale Azure and Gules, two boars rampant combatant Pean, on a chief Or as many battleaxes in saltire blades upwards Proper (for Mac Swiney of Mashanaglass)."

 

The chapeau and robe are for the Scottish feudal barony of Biggar.  There is nothing in these arms that could reasonably be indicative of a papal title, least of all in the MacSwiney quarter.

 

As for confirming vs. granting:  there are several possibilities.  There could have been an earlier grant or, more likely, Ulster simply confirmed the arms on the basis of ancient user (100 years-plus) as was the practice of the office at the time.

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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02 May 2008 18:36
 

I thought it worth looking for the heraldry of Papal Nobility in my copy of the 1909 Debretts which happens to contain a section on "Foreign Nobility".

There are a number of persons with papal titles listed (though interestingly not Charles’ grandfather). Unfortunately though their heraldry is often depicted it is not always blazoned so there may well be mistakes in the blazons below.

 

Recorded are:

 

Alphonso Otho Gandolfi Honyold 2nd Duke Gandolfi [Thomas Charles Gandolfi Hornyold (1846-1906) cr Marquis Gandolfi, of Rome by brief of Pope Leo XIII in 1895 with remainder to his heirs male and Duke Gandolfi by brief of Pope Leo XIII in 1899 with remainder to his heirs male].

 

The arms appear to be

 

Quarterly 1&4 Azure on a bend embattled Argent a lion passant between two escallops Sable 2nd ? On a trimount a torch between two lions rampant growned ?3rd Sable a lion rampant Argent

 

Supporters: Two lions Argent ducally crowned and gorged with plain collars from which are pendant, Dexter a shield charged with keys in saltire, Sinister a shield Azure charged with something debruised by a bar

 

Two crests are shown , 1st a demi unicorn Sable, 2nd a demi lion bearing a dagger Sable

Above the crest a coronet of eight leaves (3 and two halves showing)

 

Robert Cecil Joseph Patrick Kearney, Count Cecil-Kearney [Roman Count, title revived by Letters Patent 1868].

 

Arms: 1st & 4th Argent three lions rampant Gules on a chief Azure between two pheons Or a gauntleted hand in fess of the last holding a dagger of the first hilted and pommelled Or 2&3 Gules on a mount Vert two combatant kions Argent chained or supporting a tower triple towered of the third; On an escutcheon of pretence Argent on a chief indented Gules three crosses pattee of the field

 

Crests: 1st A gauntleted hand in fess holding a dagger, 2nd A ruined castle in flames

 

Neither supporters nor any coronet or other sign of rank shown.

 

Guiseppe Scicluna, 2nd Marquess Scicluna

 

No date of creation or genealogical information given arms appear to be

 

Gules a horse rampant Ermine, in chief a Maltese cross between an increscent and decrescent all Argent

 

Crest: Out of a coronet pallisado A demi horse Ermine holding a Maltese cross

 

Above the shield is a coronet of four pearls on low points between four leaves (one and two leaves and two pearls showing).

 

Girolamo Taglioferro, 1st Count Tagliaferro [cr by Leo XIII, April 1892]

 

Azure a fess Gules between three stars of six points Argent

 

No crest is shown but the arms are surmounted by a coronet of 16 (9 visible) pearls on high points.

 

James

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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02 May 2008 22:49
 

I believe that what Father Selvester is looking for are grants of arms from the Holy See, augmentations from the Holy See or grants of noble titles from the Holy See with specific heraldic traditions to reflect this rare status. Thus far there has been no concrete proof that heraldry for the papally honoured layman exists outside of the Italain heraldic tradition.

The only present day heraldic practice that I can think of for an honoured Catholic layman is the encirling of the shiled of arms with the chain of a Gentleman of His Holiness*. The insignia can be seen here on the arms at the top of the page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4369/Bookplate/macpherson_2.htm

 

See this site for additional information: http://papalhonorees.org/intro.htm

 

*Formerly known as a Chamberlain of the Sword and Cape.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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03 May 2008 03:11
 

Yeah, that’s pretty much what I said Mr. McMillan. Thanks for the direct link to the arms. I too don’t see anything in that third quarter that speaks of it either, nor the rest of his achievement. Though one would not expect to as these are Scottish arms granted by the Lord Lyon and as I understand it, limited understanding of course, LL and his contemporaries would not grant any prerogatives for a foreign title.

I have sent him a PM asking if he knows of any peculiarities associated with his grandfather’s arms that spoke of his status as a papal marquis. I will post what I learn when I do.

 
George Lucki
 
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George Lucki
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05 May 2008 17:24
 

Michael Swanson;57952 wrote:

Did the papal-nobles have any military obligations to the Pope in exchange for their titles?


No. Although until the recent reforms of the Papal court/household there was a Noble Guard headed by a captain (Lt. general) whose members were of the Roman nobility. They were volunteers and served without pay (it was of course an honour) and paid the cost of their own uniforms and equipment (not cheap). They performed symbolic military service - but during World War II very real frontier service.

 
George Lucki
 
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05 May 2008 17:29
 

Michael Y. Medvedev;57967 wrote:

Dear George,

As far as I understand, it is highly misleading both to consider the temporal sovereignty of the Pope as independent of his ecclesiastical position (as Velde does), and to identify the papal temporal authority with the authority of the headship of a State.

The sovereign power of the Supreme Pontiff was for senturies directly attached to his See rather than to any of his possessions, being an absolutely secular attribute of a spiritual dignity. This medieval principle presumably could become obsolete in modern times if it would not gain a decisive importance because of the loss of the Papal State in the course of the unification of Italy. The Vatican sovereignty is amalgamated to the sovereign status of the Holy See, the latter status being a much more complicated phenomenon.

Therefore, the fact that the papal heraldic, chivalric and nobiliary honours are conferred by the Pope as the head of the Catholic church rather than of the State of the Vatican, does not make that honours ecclesiastic. They are “normal” temporal honours, albeit sometimes attached to an ecclesiastical position (including that of a loyal layman), just like the fons honorum which produced them is attached to the See of Rome.


The distinctions temporal v. ecclesiastic are a modern one - the better distinction for the Papacy might be between the episcopal and the sovereign (and these merged both spiritual and temporal sovereignty). Even in terms of clerical ranks - the orders of priests and bishops are quite different from the somewhat more temporal creations of the various prelates of honour or even cardinals which seem to relate more to the role of Pope as sovereign than as bishop.

 
George Lucki
 
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05 May 2008 17:40
 

gselvester;57983 wrote:

It doesn’t seem so. The examples from Von Volborth that you pointed out are examples of Italian not Papal heraldic practices. The inclusion of the tiara and keys as an augmentation on the shield if your family has a member who is (or was) a Pope is not established by the Holy See. It became a feature of Italian heraldry during the 450 year period when Italians only were being elected Pope. It does not indicate an office or title bestowed by the Pope. The example is of a papal Marquis who was created as such by Pope Pius XI (the one preceding his papal cousin) and the augmentation of the tiara and keys came not with that title but with the subsequent election of his cousin as Pope Pius XII. If my cousin was elected Pope I could augment my arms in the same way without any communication whatsoever between me and the Holy See.

The other example is a bit different in that the augmentation of the ombrellino and keys (the symbol of the Church) was received by the Princes Odescalchi for services to the Church by a specific decision of the Pope. However, that has nothing to do with ennobling them. They were Princes before receiving this and the augmentation could also just as easily been given to any armigerous family without conferring along with it any title.

 

Von Volborth correctly indicates that this symbol, too, was often borne by families who gave a Pope to the Church. However, as with the one above, in such a case it was assumed, not granted by the Papacy.


The crossed keys and ombrellino device goes back to the Guelph/Ghibelline conflict and the two parties could be distinguished on the one hand by either the Anjou chief or the Papal device as augmentations of allegiance (likely assumed to show allegiance) or on the other hand by the Imperial Eagle.

 

Guy is correct that like in other parts of Europe ennoblement did not necessarily involve a grant of arms - which arms might be assumed. The Papacy actually took little interest in heraldy and the heraldic elements are mainly in augmentation and insignial elements.

 

The distinction between ‘Italian heraldry’ and Papal heraldry is at best a bit artificial as during the period preceding the loss of the Papal states and the unification of Italy there was no Italy nor any unified heraldic system. In this environment the Papacy was a significant power.

 
George Lucki
 
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05 May 2008 17:45
 

gselvester;57989 wrote:

Yes, and what in all of this makes any of their heraldic achievements particular to someone who received a noble title from the Pope??? Where’s the heraldry? Otherwise this is just a catalogue of example after example of the fact that at one time in history (because it is no longer done) laypeople were given nobiliary titles by Popes.


The same question could be asked with respect to the heraldry of clergy where only the insignial elements have anything to do with the Church - the rest is a catalogue of arms assumed by office holders.

 

The power to ennoble has not been abolished - it has simply not occurred for a period of time - and in the scheme of things not that long.

 
George Lucki
 
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05 May 2008 17:50
 

David Pritchard;57999 wrote:

I believe that what Father Selvester is looking for are grants of arms from the Holy See, augmentations from the Holy See or grants of noble titles from the Holy See with specific heraldic traditions to reflect this rare status. Thus far there has been no concrete proof that heraldry for the papally honoured layman exists outside of the Italain heraldic tradition.

The only present day heraldic practice that I can think of for an honoured Catholic layman is the encirling of the shiled of arms with the chain of a Gentleman of His Holiness*. The insignia can be seen here on the arms at the top of the page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4369/Bookplate/macpherson_2.htm

 

See this site for additional information: http://papalhonorees.org/intro.htm

 

*Formerly known as a Chamberlain of the Sword and Cape.


A wonderful example of a unique heraldic privilege. the privilege of lay members of the EOS (Holy Sepulchre) and the Knights of Malta would be two other contemporary usages.

 

My apologies for the number of posts - just catching up with a very interesting thread.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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05 May 2008 21:24
 

George Lucki;58055 wrote:

The same question could be asked with respect to the heraldry of clergy where only the insignial elements have anything to do with the Church - the rest is a catalogue of arms assumed by office holders.


But there are heraldic privileges, indeed an entire system, that has to do with these offices within the Church as opposed to your groundless contention that there is such a thing as "the heraldry of Papal nobles". The former has to do with the purpose of this category because it is religious heraldry (heraldry that could only be associated with religious persons) whereas the latter does not. It is precisely these insignial elements that make the heraldry of clerics religious heraldry.

 
gselvester
 
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05 May 2008 21:29
 

George Lucki;58055 wrote:

The power to ennoble has not been abolished - it has simply not occurred for a period of time - and in the scheme of things not that long.


Who cares? It matters little that they still can. They don’t. That the Popes at one time created a nobility of there own is merely interesting. It does little toward answering the question concerning the heraldic privileges of a noble created by a Pope. So far, none of the heraldic peculiarities that have been correctly pointed out have had nothing to do with a noble title per se.

 

I know two Americans who are Gentlemen of His Holiness and neither one is considered a noble. As I’ve already pointed out if my brother was elected Pope I could augment my arms with a device of the tiara and keys or the ombrellino and keys but there’s no nobility involved there either.

 

I’ve yet to see a heraldic privilege tied to having been ennobled by a Pope.

 
gselvester
 
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05 May 2008 21:31
 

George Lucki;58056 wrote:

...the privilege of lay members of the EOS (Holy Sepulchre) and the Knights of Malta would be two other contemporary usages.


I’m not sure that’s correct. While the EOHS is uniquely and irrevocably tied to the Papacy membership does not confer nobility. The privileges of the Knights of Malta are based on that Order’s own sovereignty and has nothing whatsoever to do with any noble titles granted by the Pope.