David Pritchard;58247 wrote:
May I suggest a simple but elegant crest design that is in keeping with the extreme Gallic dignity of your last design proposal? On a wreath Gules lined Argent a clarion Argent This would give you five clarions in total, a perfect number in both European and Asian cultures, rather than four clarions, a number associated with death in Asian cultures. Should you choose the popinjay over the clarion, it is my opinion that the popinjay would look best in Argent with the beak and eye in Or or Gules depending upon your personal taste.
I’m not familiar with the term lined as you use it here. I’ve seen it as a synonym for doubled in relation to mantling, or as a synonym for collared with certain animals.
After reading your suggestion something came to me, but unfortunately I left my USB drive at work so I’ll have to look for some art to test it out…what about a clarion between wings, or even a winged clarion?
If you plan to use a crest and badge Gules and Argent, I would suggest using the upper left version (field Gules, chief Argent) in order to keep the same color scheme. If you go with the "Parisian" version (field Gules, chief Azure), I would think the clarion badge should be Azure and Argent, rather than Gules and Argent—but that loosens the barbershop connection.
Following up on David’s suggestion: with the "Parisian" version, perhaps for a crest a clarion Argent on a wreath Gules and Azure (a little unorthodox, but ...). For a badge, then, perhaps, on a roundel per fess Azure and Gules a clarion Argent (perhaps even garnished Or).
Dale Challener Roe;58250 wrote:
I’m not familiar with the term lined as you use it here. I’ve seen it as a synonym for doubled in relation to mantling, or as a synonym for collared with certain animals.
After reading your suggestion something came to me, but unfortunately I left my USB drive at work so I’ll have to look for some art to test it out…what about a clarion between wings, or even a winged clarion?
What about a clarion? Just as it is. No reason to make it fussy, it’s an underused charge, in my not so humble opinion. I think you’re really onto something here.
Dale Challener Roe;58250 wrote:
I’m not familiar with the term lined as you use it here. I’ve seen it as a synonym for doubled in relation to mantling…....
Doubled is the Scottish heraldic term used to describe the inner colour (or more accurately the metal) of the mantling. Lined is the English heraldic term used to describe the inner colour of the mantling.
Why would you want to clutter up the clarion with wings? If you spent some time looking through the 144 plates in Fairbairn’s Crests of the Families of Great Britain and Ireland you would learn that sticking wings on most anything used as a crest is a very tired and overused technique that stands as an affront to heraldic creativity. I am certain from you choice in arms that you can do better than this. If you must have something winged, please put them on something that actually has wings such as your popinjay*.
*If anyone has missed my point, I strongly discourage the use of gratuitous or superfluous wings in heraldic crests.
David Pritchard;58257 wrote:
*If anyone has missed my point, I strongly discourage the use of gratuitous or superfluous wings in heraldic crests.
So, if I get your meaning, you wouldn’t like this?
Kenneth Mansfield;58258 wrote:
You may see this as a clever joke (which it may just be) but to my eyes it is a form of visual torture so vile that may not even be authorised at Guantanamo Bay to sway the most terrible of prisoners to talk.
David Pritchard;58257 wrote:
Doubled is the Scottish heraldic term used to describe the inner colour (or more accurately the metal) of the mantling. Lined is the English heraldic term used to describe the inner colour of the mantling.
Nevermind. It’s just been that kind day. When I read your suggestion the word wreath immediately translated into a wreath of, for instance, laurels and not of the beginnings on the mantling. So it was just me being tired and stupid.
To me, it reminds me of those old cartoons (especially Sylvester and Tweety, and Wile Coyote and the Road Runner) when a character get’s killed and their angel would float up….. :D And it’s be like a transparenty wingèd version of the character….
Cheers,
Dale Challener Roe;58260 wrote:
Nevermind. It’s just been that kind day. When I read your suggestion the word wreath immediately translated into a wreath of, for instance, laurels and not of the beginnings on the mantling. So it was just me being tired and stupid.
Actually my description of the crest wreath was incorrect, I used the terminology of the mantling for the crest wreath. I can at times loose my bearings and become befuddled just like our senior presidential candidate.
David Pritchard;58259 wrote:
Kenneth Mansfield;58258 wrote:
So, if I get your meaning, you wouldn’t like this?
You may see this as a clever joke (which it may just be) but to my eyes it is a form of visual torture so vile that may not even be authorised at Guantanamo Bay to sway the most terrible of prisoners to talk.
I don’t think torture was ever required to get you to talk, David. 
Later tonight I should have some time to play with the emblazon and see what fits. However, all this discussion leads me to three questions.
1. What exactly is a clarion? I know it’s a musical instrument, and most of the sources I’ve found have very vaguely described it as a kind of trumpet, although at least one source puts forth that it was a portable pipe organ. There is some evidence for both. Language sources state that the saying "clarion call" comes from a medieval instrument (that may have been used by heralds) with a sharp ring that would get people’s attention. A standard pipe organ also has a stop called clarion which sounds an awful lot like a trumpet. Either way, I’m only asking because if I’m going to use a particular charge I’d like to know what it is.
2. Does an heraldic artist have license in the depiction of the crest and badge the way they do with the arms and/or achievement? The reason I ask is that when considering a clarion argent as a crest and/or charge I have concerns that it would show up in certain formats. If an artist were including the charge on, for instance a standard, with an field argent, would they have license to put a bit of mantling of ribbon behind it to make it more visible. I know the badge could be made a roundel background or similar device, but my question is more hypothetical at this point.
3. David mentioned that the shield shape I used in my most recent sample was from the War of the Roses and Tudor periods. What would be a helm style that would be consistent with this area and time period?
What is a clarion?
From my reading, I gather that we don’t really know. It seems to have been some kind of musical instrument, but very early became so stylized that the original object is difficult to recognize (rather like the fleur-de-lis, which some think may have been a frog before it became a flower).
The name "clarion" has become associated with some kind of trumpet, but the heraldic charge may have been something altogether different. It sometimes appears to be a pan-pipe with a handle, or an organ with bellows, or even a harmonica with a handle. It is also clled by other names: "claricord," "sufflue," and even "rest" (because some later heralds misinterpreted it as a stylized rest for a lance).
I suggested it because it is a little-used but attractive charge that has musical connotations but does not represent a specific, well-known instrument. It therefore suggests musicality in general.
Dale Challener Roe;58275 wrote:
3. David mentioned that the shield shape I used in my most recent sample was from the War of the Roses and Tudor periods. What would be a helm style that would be consistent with this area and time period?
The heavy bolted on Tournament Helm is the appropriate helm for this type of shield and period. See: http://12.151.120.44/toah/hd/rarm/ho_29.156.67a.htm#
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A drawing by Old Master artist Albrecht Dürer of a Jouting Helm of the fifteenth century:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Dürer_Stechhelm.jpg
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Dohrman Byers;58280 wrote:
What is a clarion?I suggested it because it is a little-used but attractive charge that has musical connotations but does not represent a specific, well-known instrument. It therefore suggests musicality in general.
And one of the reasons I liked it so much was that it very much resembles a stylized pitch pipe. Thank you for the information, Fr.
David Pritchard;58281 wrote:
The heavy bolted on Tournament Helm is the appropriate helm for this type of shield and period.
Great. I have an excellent clip art of this style. Thanks for the info, David.
