Assumption document

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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21 August 2015 20:30
 

But Seb, your arms are matriculated in Lyon Register, so not (to me) surprising.  What is ,(to me again,) surprising is the apparent current acceptance of assumed arms vs the past English curfluffle re: Irish grants vs confirmations.

 
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21 August 2015 22:11
 

Michael F. McCartney;104628 wrote:

But Seb, your arms are matriculated in Lyon Register, so not (to me) surprising.  What is ,(to me again,) surprising is the apparent current acceptance of assumed arms vs the past English curfluffle re: Irish grants vs confirmations.


Mike,

 

"Acceptance" is a strong word.  I got the impression that "tolerate" is a better word choice.  According to Windsor Herald, my arms are still not recognized by the VOStJ and my suspension of the insignia from my shield is merely in a private capacity as a U.S. citizen.  For now that will have to do.

 

I think you are right about Seb’s arms.  He has Scottish arms and apparently that requires a license from the Secretary-General of the Order.  The Secretary-General will apparently not issue a license for South African arms (unless I am also South African) or any assumed arms.

 

Sadly, receiving a British Crown honour does not bring me under the jurisdiction of LL but does for the COA.  What is strange, at least to me, is that LL will grant and matriculate arms for citizens of Commonwealth nations but will not grant arms for those receiving British honours or Crown honours.  With the COA receiving a British honour or Crown honour essentially entitles you to equivalent treatment as if you had English or Commonwealth ancestry.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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22 August 2015 05:32
 

Accept or tolerate - important perhaps to them but matters little to me.  Either way, a recognition, however reluctant, that however much we may respect their expertise and appreciate their artwork, their writ doesn’t run here.

As to the difference in approach between the English and Scottish heralds, the underlying legalities are the same - only those who in one way or another are tied to the Crown fall within their delegated authority to grant substantive arms.  How they view and deal with that shared legal constraint differs significantly, but these are merely different ways to observe the same basic limit.

 

The English approach is "honourary" grants to those outside their jurisdiction - nearly indistinguishable in appearance and artistic merit from substantive grants, but on an entirely different legal basis.  Honourary grants, unlike substantive grants to folks in the UK (other than domiciled Scots) and Commonwealth, are not granted from the Queen; rather, they are private acts of the three KoA’s to foreigners who owe no loyalty to the realm or Commonwealth but whom the KoA’s choose to honor -similar to the difference between knighthoods (Sir whoever) and honourary knighthoods to foreigners (no "Sir").

 

The Scots honor the same legal limit but in a different manner.  Their grants are all substantive, not honourary; and they will not matriculate any non-substantive ("honourary") arms.  Grants to foreign petitioners—those who have no legal connection to the Queen or Scotland - are generally worded as grants to a Scottish or Commonwealth ancestor, followed by matriculation to the foreign petitioner (since arms in Scotland, once granted, are heritable property).  If a foreigner owns real property in Scotland, and therefore has legal obligations under Scottish law, then Lyon may grant substantive arms.  But "honourary" awards of decorations or other honours to foreigners, which are not property creating legal obligations under Scottish law, do not bring the honouree under Lyon’s jurisdiction for a substantive grant.

 

(In the past, former Lyons would routinely matriculate foreign grants of arms believed to be "substantive" but that doesn’t appear to be current policy absent some other Scottish legal tie such as owning property.)

 

All of which, while understandable, is frustrating to those foreigners who receive honours from the Queen but still find themselves ineligible to petition for Scottish arms; but this isn’t targeting them, it’s just one consequence of how the two heraldic systems apply the same underlying legal limit to their authority to grant arms.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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22 August 2015 08:00
 

Michael F. McCartney;104630 wrote:

Honourary grants, unlike substantive grants to folks in the UK (other than domiciled Scots) and Commonwealth, are not granted from the Queen…


Restraining my impulse to split hairs over this and other elements of Mike’s post, could I instead suggest that none of it has anything to do with the subject of assumption documents, and that if anyone wishes to pursue the discussion of the nature of English and Scottish grants and their use within the VOStJ, he or she open a thread on that topic?

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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22 August 2015 14:36
 

Works for me!  - so unless someone else starts the suggested new thread (not me!) I get a pass on whatever I muffed… wink

...though I am curious as to which hairs warrant splitting…

 
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24 August 2015 01:40
 

Thanks for your posts Mike.  Yes, it is a bit frustrating for me, but that’s how the system works and I have to deal with it.

Joseph, I agree with you 100%.  Could you or the forum moderator please kindly move this topic to a new thread?  I don’t think I am empowered to do this, and would not know how to do so anyway.  Thank you.

 
JJB1
 
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JJB1
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14 April 2016 00:08
 

I don’t really know anything about this company, though this looks like a pretty good idea for an assumption document of sorts. I don’t speak German; so I don’t know what the examples say. But I especially like the look of the commission report.

http://finelegacy.com/heraldry/granting-of-a-coat-of-arms/