I hope I can find a Prof. of Greek Mythology among you,
is there a date associated with Achilles,
or what is the oldest date/reference ever found for his persona!
Yes this is a heraldic question!
Please help me if you can!
Best regards,
Frank
There are generalizations given from 1100-1300 BC for the war. Different Greek historians gave different dates for the war, of which their histories were written several centuries past the actual event if it occurred.
Thank you Alex,
Do you know the time range between those opinions!
Could it have been around 600 BC…...... plus/minus 200 years?
If I am right??????????????????????
This would be the oldest "Coat of Arms" in a loose sense,
known to me!
Far predating everybody’s estimation!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Isle_of_Man_coat_of_arms.svg
Frank
Hi Frank and Alex,
According to some astronomers (who have dated an eclipse of the sun and the relative position of the Pleiades, Boötes, Mercury and Venus as recorded in the Odyssey) Odysseus/Ulisses may have returned to Ithaka on 16. April 1178 BC.
Minus ten years makes up 1188 BC, when Achilles died before the walls of Ilion….
Nonetheless, I am afraid that the said calculations may be founded at least a little bit in – say….wishful thinking….?
It could’nt have been around 600 BC as records still exist from that time, and of the wars written of, Troy is not one. It would have to had been prior to 800 BC. The records of this time and before were destroyed in fires and earthquakes, and thus the uncertainty of several things in Mediterranean history. Most common shorter dates has the war around 1180-1240 BC, which corresponds to archaeological evidence that shows the city was razed around that time.
The three conjoined legs has been found in paintings on pottery and such that show warriors using the symbol upon shields. They also have more geometric patterns as well. They are not heraldry as we understand it today. There is no evidence that these symbols were inherited. It is more of a psuedo heraldry, though this might have negative connotation, so could also be called pre heraldry.
Jochen;64683 wrote:
Hi Frank and Alex,
According to some astronomers (who have dated an eclipse of the sun and the relative position of the Pleiades, Boötes, Mercury and Venus as recorded in the Odyssey) Odysseus/Ulisses may have returned to Ithaka on 16. April 1178 BC.
Minus ten years makes up 1188 BC, when Achilles died before the walls of Ilion….
That works perfectly into the time frame.
Another cite used is Heracles. The walls of Troy were built during his life time, and their are dates to his supposed existence, if he is indeed based on a historic figure. Actual historic figures claiming his direct decent lived through the burning of troy, and give a rough estimate of both construction and destruction, the latter being in the 1180’s BC. But, this is myth.
Even though everything does suggest the same time period, history is not one to base evidence on mythos and coincidence, and thus the wider range of dates.
Thanks Jochen,
and thank you Alex ...(we posted in approx. the same time!)
Then I need to figure out when
"Galtia" came into existence ....
or when the first Celts settled there!
http://www.seleukidempire.org/Galatians.htm
Quote
"""Not all of the Galatian bands had been forcibly settled in Galatia, and many of those remaining at large were precariously employed as mercenaries by kings and dynasts throughout the Hellenistic world.""
Because .... the more I think about it,
the stronger I believe that Achilles was (could have been) Celtic!??????????????
"THE SHIELD OF ACHILLES"
http://www.wappenschild.eu/assets/images/Achilles_Hector.jpg
Please also the remember the Saga that Achilles
was vulnerable at his heel!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<hr class=“bbcode_rule” >
located at his LEG!!!
http://www.seleukidempire.org/Galatians.htm
Quote
"""
The territory of Galatia was organized among the three major tribal groups of the Tolistobogioi, the Tektosages and the Trokmoi. Each tribe had its own capital and was ruled by tetrarchs. A Celtic language continued to be spoken in Galatia until the fourth century AD. """
(My theory ...one leg for each tribe!)
Naturally this is open for discussion!
Frank
xanderliptak;64684 wrote:
It is more of a psuedo heraldry, though this might have negative connotation, so could also be called pre heraldry.
I think the term "protoheraldry" is what you’re looking for.
The Galatians were centred in Anatolia, this the tribe of Achilles? I can not recall what tribe was his. Some migrated to western Europe, becoming known as the Gauls, and their land their Gallia. I believe they simply migrated to Britannia at this time as well. The Gauls were forced to migrate again to Iberia when the Franks invaded. Thus the reason Gallia became known as Francia and eventually France. In Iberia, with the Visigoths, they became the modern Spanish. Those that were in Britannia were forced westward when the Angles and Saxons invaded. When the Normans came, the Angles moved to Wales and became the Welsh, forcing the Gauls to Ireland, where they became known as Celts. They then migrated to Scotland from Ireland and became the Gaels there.
That is not to say Achilles was Spanish then, Irish nor Scottish, simply that they shared the same ancestors. It is like the ape and man, they have similar relatives far back when, but have become distinctly different over time. Just a small portion of genetics would be shared anymore.
As for the C and G being interchanged, this is from older Latin, where the two sounds were similar and interchangeable. A common example is the name Gaius, also seen as Caius. Both are pronounced as Gaius. In Enlglish, we find paladin from palatini, where the similar D and T are changed out. Middle English often sees F in places where one would expect S, thsi is due to F in the middle of words being pronounced as an S.
Nice!!!
"this the tribe of Achilles"
Alex, where did you find this?
You beat me in the internet search!!!!!!!!!!!!
:cool:
If I read this correctly, I wasn’t to far off with my theory!!!???
Best regards,
Frank
History classes. Migration of people is always fun.
I’m confused… how did you come to the conclusion that the mythical figure of Achilles was a Celt?
The Celts arrived in central Anatolia during the Iron Age while the Trojan War is placed in the Bronze Age.
Achilles was a Myrmidon, a Greek, and considered as one by the others in the Iliad. The Celts/Galatians/etc. were never considered as such.
I should have kept my books from 35 years ago!
But I am sure I wouldn’t have found it way back then!
to summarize this thread!
1 + 1 = 2 :!:
To date this (for lack of words) CoA,
based on the dates given by Jochen and you
it would be close to 3000 years old!
Uuups!
I missed the post of Kimon,
let’s see what else pops up!
Best regards,
Frank
Anatolia was settled by a Indo-European tribe around 1800 BC!
Strong and brutal enough to beat the all mighty Egyptians at this time!
They formed the earliest known civilization in Asia Minor (now Turkey). They controlled the area as early as 1900 bc, imposing their language and culture on the original inhabitants. They did, however, establish peaceful and mutually profitable relations with them. They were known for their advanced system of government. Their military was also advanced; they were among the first to smelt iron, and their chariots were the lightest and fastest of their time.
:cool:
Frank
Here
Celtic Ogham
http://www.healinginharmony.net/ogham.gif
Hittite 1900-1800 BC Anatolia
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k397/cormacmacairt/HittiteScript.jpg
Frank, that information is interesting and widely known, at least to the members of this forum.
However, back to your original position, how do you conclude that a figure that may or may not have existed and fought in a war (or series of wars depending on who you read) that is more or less placed in about 1100-1200 BC descend from a people (the Gauls) that did not arrive in the region until about 280BC? I didn’t major in math but, something doesn’t add up….
