NEEDED - Prof. Dr. of Greek Mythology

 
Frank Martinoff
 
Avatar
 
 
Frank Martinoff
Total Posts:  249
Joined  04-10-2008
 
 
 
25 November 2008 11:36
 

Hi Kimon,

I thought I had explained it, but give me some time (am at work)!!

 

Best regards,

Frank

 
Frank Martinoff
 
Avatar
 
 
Frank Martinoff
Total Posts:  249
Joined  04-10-2008
 
 
 
25 November 2008 22:44
 

kimon;64719 wrote:

Frank, that information is interesting and widely known, at least to the members of this forum.

....


Hi Kimon,

Now I’m a little confused, which part is known to you an the rest of the members!

Is it partial or everything I mentioned?

 

If everything is known to you, this should include that the Hittite Script as well as the Celtic Script are very similar!

If this was known to you, I really don’t understand

why you are bringing up the 280 BC date, which is questionable at any rate

since this date varies from one Prof. to another!

 

Quote

"""Tribal groups of the Celtic people known to the Greeks as the Galatai, or Galatians, first began to be seriously noticed by the Greek world in the time of Alexander the Great."""

 

AtG was born in 356 BC,

that means the Celts have been in this area much longer!

So, your date of 280 BC is already off by over a hundred years

when the Celts were seriously noticed by the Greek Society!

 

Nobody knows for how long they have been in this area!

 

First I thought the Hittites are not connected

until I compared their Scripts!

 

But…. that both Scripts are almost identical (at least extremely similar)was already known to members of this forum!

wink

Similarities

Quote

"After ca. 1180 BC, the empire split into several independent "Neo-Hittite" city-states, some surviving until as late as the 8th century BC."

 

The Celts had also three tribes in this same area,

if they are separate warfaring groups, both cultures coexisted (holding hands) /overlapped/shared the same ground for approx. 500-700 years!

Wouldn’t it be more plausible, if one culture developed out of the other

.....if they are not one and the same?

 

One more similarity, both cultures were ignored by the Greeks!

 

Best regards,

Frank

 
AVD1
 
Avatar
 
 
AVD1
Total Posts:  169
Joined  31-08-2006
 
 
 
26 November 2008 02:12
 

Sorry if I am missing something (it’s late and I’m tired) but there is some other link between the Galatians and Achilles beyond the three legged decoration reputedly painted in his battle shield?

Is this link the assumption that each of the legs represent one of the original tribes?

If the Celtic signs and the Hittite script are similar that only means that both cultures have a common historical element not that Achilles belonged to any of this group.

Why would we consider that a coalition of Greek Cities would put a Galatian-Hittite-etc. as their ‘Champion’ in the battlefield. Am I being too Occam’s razor devotee or am I missing something?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
26 November 2008 07:05
 

AVD;64742 wrote:

Sorry if I am missing something (it’s late and I’m tired) but there is some other link between the Galatians and Achilles beyond the three legged decoration reputedly painted in his battle shield?

Is this link the assumption that each of the legs represent one of the original tribes?

If the Celtic signs and the Hittite script are similar that only means that both cultures have a common historical element not that Achilles belonged to any of this group.

Why would we consider that a coalition of Greek Cities would put a Galatian-Hittite-etc. as their ‘Champion’ in the battlefield. Am I being too Occam’s razor devotee or am I missing something?


Aurelio,

 

No, you’re not missing anything. This has to be one of the most absurd, not to say bizarre, threads we’ve seen in a long time. Whatever the exact date of the Celts’ earliest known appearance in Anatolia, it was at least 500 years after the destruction of Ilium (see the recent German archeological research on Wilusa/Ilium) and thus after the death of Achilles.

 

Post hoc is not always propter hoc, but it sometimes is. Pre hoc is never propter hoc.

 

(Edited:  Also, there is no, repeat no evidence, that the possibly real or possibly fictional Achilles used a shield with three conjoined legs or any other triskelion-like device on it.  Something shown on a piece of Attic black figure pottery made some 600 years after the fact—a piece which in fact may not even be intended to represent Achilles in the first place—is not a remotely credible source for what Achilles shield actually looked like.  On the other hand, the Iliad itself, which probably was composed at least a century or two before the pottery was made, has a detailed description of Achilles’ shield, and says nothing about any such device.)

 
Frank Martinoff
 
Avatar
 
 
Frank Martinoff
Total Posts:  249
Joined  04-10-2008
 
 
 
26 November 2008 11:23
 

Joseph McMillan;64743 wrote:

Aurelio,

 

 

(Edited:  Also, there is no, repeat no evidence, that the possibly real or possibly fictional Achilles used a shield with three conjoined legs or any other triskelion-like device on it.  Something shown on a piece of Attic black figure pottery made some 600 years after the fact—a piece which in fact may not even be intended to represent Achilles in the first place—is not a remotely credible source for what Achilles shield actually looked like.  On the other hand, the Iliad itself, which probably was composed at least a century or two before the pottery was made, has a detailed description of Achilles’ shield, and says nothing about any such device.)


Ah ... finally something smart!

Thank you Joseph for giving me the honor of reading the thread!

wink

Frank

 
Frank Martinoff
 
Avatar
 
 
Frank Martinoff
Total Posts:  249
Joined  04-10-2008
 
 
 
26 November 2008 11:48
 

This thread is not bizarre,

mildly said

it has to be one of the strangest coincidences I have come across!

It makes you think!!!

 

Best regards,

Frank

 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
26 November 2008 20:12
 

Frank Martinoff;64756 wrote:

This thread is not bizarre,


Well, let’s see: we are to conclude that Achilles was a proto-Celt of some kind on the strength of:

 

(a) the resemblance between the coat of arms of a single Celtic entity (the Isle of Man) and a picture of something that may be intended to be Achilles’ shield on a piece of pottery manufactured something like 600 years after his death, and

 

(b) the fact that Celtic inhabitants are believed to have moved into the general area in which the Trojan Wars took place, 800 years after Achilles’ death (of course, Achilles wasn’t from that area, but never mind), and

 

(c) the fact that the Oghamic alphabet used in Ireland in the 4th to 7th centuries AD and the Hittite cuneiform script used in Anatolia some two millennia earlier both consist exclusively of straight lines.

 

Sounds pretty bizarre to me. Why not conclude that Achilles was a proto-Sicilian or a proto-Bavarian?

 

Emblem of Sicily:

http://bp1.blogger.com/_tShlOf4cTtc/RhEjCmKQC_I/AAAAAAAAACs/0mIQ3fA9zjI/s320/trinacria.jpg

 

Arms of the town of Füssen, Bavaria:

http://www.flaggen-server.de/dland2/fuessen.gif


Quote:

It makes you think!!!


Well, yes… it does.

 
Frank Martinoff
 
Avatar
 
 
Frank Martinoff
Total Posts:  249
Joined  04-10-2008
 
 
 
26 November 2008 22:56
 

Frank Martinoff;64751 wrote:

Ah ... finally something smart!

Thank you Joseph for giving me the honor of reading the thread!

:?:

My vote is for the Proto-Chicken that laid the egg

out of which the Chicken hatched!

:egg:

 
Jochen
 
Avatar
 
 
Jochen
Total Posts:  232
Joined  04-05-2005
 
 
 
27 November 2008 01:11
 

Joseph McMillan;64761 wrote:

Why not conclude that Achilles was a ....... proto-Bavarian?

]

Arms of the town of Füssen, Bavaria:

http://www.flaggen-server.de/dland2/fuessen.gif

 

 


Frank,

 

may I quote that posting of Joseph in "Heraldik im Netz" ?

 

Just to make the fellows of my southern brother-tribe happy ....?  (just kidding..)

 
Frank Martinoff
 
Avatar
 
 
Frank Martinoff
Total Posts:  249
Joined  04-10-2008
 
 
 
27 November 2008 01:17
 

LOL

You can post it all!

But you will see…...... they will skin me alive!:!:

 

LOL

HG

Frank

 
Alexander Liptak
 
Avatar
 
 
Alexander Liptak
Total Posts:  846
Joined  06-06-2008
 
 
 
27 November 2008 01:20
 

Is there not a legend? that I believe it is from the Isle of Mann, but not absolutely certain as I can not find it when I search for it, where there was an attempt to repeal invaders and the king prayed for aid in battle and was given by the gods an extra leg to make him faster on the field.

Common symbols have been found in various groups of people that have arisen independently of one another, as mere coincidence.  Crosses, saltires, triangles and crescents have been observed through out the entire world without any connection between them.  It depends on the viewer, but these could be seen as completely different as the Greek pottery shows three nude legs, while Mann has three armoured legs.  That a leg is common enough for any group of people to adopt, and that the number three often is found in cultures as well.  Three wise men, heraldry shows charges commonly repeated in threes, the Pantheon was headed by the three great gods that ruled the three realms of the world, there are three ages of man and so forth.

 
Frank Martinoff
 
Avatar
 
 
Frank Martinoff
Total Posts:  249
Joined  04-10-2008
 
 
 
27 November 2008 02:23
 

Hi Alex,

it’s true what you are saying,

but please don’t forget

that this is a chain of continues coincidences!

Very strange/bizarre indeed!

Also as I posted in a different place,

please don’t forget the Celtic Spiral!

http://www.ancientspiral.com/spilogo.gif

 

May the future bring the truth!

 

Best wishes,

Frank

 
Patrick Williams
 
Avatar
 
 
Patrick Williams
Total Posts:  1356
Joined  29-07-2006
 
 
 
27 November 2008 09:23
 

Frank Martinoff;64771 wrote:

Hi Alex,

it’s true what you are saying,

but please don’t forget

that this is a chain of continues coincidences!

Very strange/bizarre indeed!

Also as I posted in a different place,

please don’t forget the Celtic Spiral!

http://www.ancientspiral.com/spilogo.gif

 

May the future bring the truth!

 

Best wishes,

Frank


Morning, Frank!

 

Look, I don’t really want to get too deep in this argument, and I hate dumping on someone’s pet theory, but ...

 

First, from what very little we really know about the Celts, they came through the Asia Minor much too late (as has already been pointed out) for your theory to hold water. But if we are going to speculate anyhow, it is more reasonable to speculate that the Celts encountered the tales of Achilles, et al, on their way through Anatolia and adopted the symbols they thought were cool. It is much, much, much less likely that they were there already and indeed were the Greeks (or even one Greek) of the Homeric sagas. And as they probably traveled from Tocharia along the seacoast of the Mediterranean and then along the coastlines of Western Europe, and as we also believe that they were great assimilators of local cultures, it is also much, much more reasonable to speculate that they picked up lots of stuff from lots of people along the way.

 

Nonetheless, let’s just say that IF the Greeks of that period were not Anatolians, then they might be Tocharians, but certainly not Celts, as that particular stripe of Tocharian had not yet arisen.

 
Frank Martinoff
 
Avatar
 
 
Frank Martinoff
Total Posts:  249
Joined  04-10-2008
 
 
 
27 November 2008 10:58
 

Hi Patrick,

Any sincere comment is helping and not "dumping"!!!

Yes this could be a possibility!

Your comments are much appreciated,

I posted it here for sincere comments like yours

and was hoping that all of you could/would help

to make sense out of it!

It’s just a "theory"

worth a discussion,

and not a "pet-theory";)

 

 

As you can see by the title of this thread,

that I was looking for members who know a little more about

this time frame!

 

And "yes" I only can speculate!

 

With my sincerest regards,

Frank

 
Frank Martinoff
 
Avatar
 
 
Frank Martinoff
Total Posts:  249
Joined  04-10-2008
 
 
 
27 November 2008 18:03
 

Hi Jochen,

since you chickend out,

LOL

http://heraldik-wappen.de/viewtopic.php?t=4529

Don’t worry, it’s on my back:!:

 

Just remembered that they found a few Celtic settlements where I grew up!

South South-West!

 

Let’s see what will happen!

wink