A question of ships…

 
Robert Tucker
 
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Robert Tucker
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07 February 2009 15:01
 

Was throwing this question out there.  I’m curious as the the thoughts of ships (and their numerous variations) used as charges and crests.  Are more "modern" silhouettes and representations being used and accepted?  Say the "sloop rigged boats" for example?

The reason I’m asking is I’m planning to use a ship, boat, galley, lymphad, etc., etc., in my crest.  Was wondering how much leeway one has when interpreting this varied charge.

 

Thanks.  :D

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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07 February 2009 16:54
 

Robert Tucker;66391 wrote:

Was throwing this question out there.  I’m curious as the the thoughts of ships (and their numerous variations) used as charges and crests.  Are more "modern" silhouettes and representations being used and accepted?  Say the "sloop rigged boats" for example?


I suspect that some World War One admiral bore a Dreadnaught as a crest. This may have seemed like a great idea at the time but now it probably looks quite incongruous with the medievalness of heraldry.

 

At least on of our members uses a ship as a crest and I suggest that you use his crest as a guide for your own design, suitably altered of course. Some years ago, I had a book plate made utilising an ancient ship, it might be useful as a guide also:Ancient Ship

 
Marcus K
 
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Marcus K
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07 February 2009 17:18
 

Yes there are acctualy several different types of Ships used like Wiking Ships, Arabic Dhows, Steam Ships and modern Sporting Yatchs. But of cause some types goes better in style with a Coat of Arms. I would advice against to put say a Arleigh Burke Class Destroyer in a Coat of Arms.

 
Arthur Radburn
 
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Arthur Radburn
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08 February 2009 05:34
 

Robert Tucker;66391 wrote:

Are more "modern" silhouettes and representations being used and accepted?


The Bureau of Heraldry in South Africa has registered arms which include a "modern" (I think early 20th century) ship, which was blazoned by name.  Presumably it had some special significance to the armiger.

 

Although not "modern" in themselves, Viking longboats also feature in modern SA heraldry.  They are the principal charge in the badges of the navy’s strike craft, and someone - possibly a naval officer - registered one as the principal charge of his personal arms in the 1990s.  Depicted affronte, the longboat’s sail provides a nice surface for displaying a lesser charge or two.

 

But, as David Pritchard has indicated, one needs to consider the risk of anachronism.

 
Airut
 
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Airut
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08 February 2009 06:22
 

When pondering upon certain charge, I like to browse through the relevant category in Wikimedia Commons. Usually one finds at least plenty of bad examples.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Boats_in_heraldry

 
Robert Tucker
 
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Robert Tucker
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08 February 2009 11:00
 

Thank you all for the information and links.  I’m wanting to use a sailing vessel in my crest to allude to my service in the US Navy.  So, it will most likely be a ship-of-war of some sort.  There are so many, might just have to design my own.  wink

 
Deer Sniper
 
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10 February 2009 15:09
 

You might consider the USS Constitution ( Old Iron sides ). I think that It could be considered as representative of the entire U.S. Navy, along the lines of the coastguards Eagle. The navy puts it in recruiting posters anyway. I also believe that it still holds a commission. It might look something like the crest of these Lockwood arms

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj301/norinko/Lockwood20COA-3.jpg

 
Robert Tucker
 
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Robert Tucker
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11 February 2009 13:37
 

Stephen, you are correct that the USS Constitution remains a commissioned Navy vessel.  It is the oldest and arguably the most prestigious ship in our history.  It is the only ship to bear the name and probably will continue to be the only one, even if she happens to be decommissioned.

But to answer your question, I had thought briefly about using "Old Ironsides" in my crest; I decided against it.  It would have been an honor to serve aboard her, and I have known a few shipmates that have, so I feel that I have no claim to use this particular ship.  And as the ship on which I did serve is an aircraft carrier, this too is anachronistic and inappropriate.  So, I have been working with longboats, lymphads, and various masted "ships of war".  I feel that a war-ship of sorts would reflect my naval service without being too specific.  I’m working now on several designs and I hope to share some concepts soon.  :D

 
David Pritchard
 
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11 February 2009 19:40
 

Have you considered using an old style cutter, that is a sailing ship with one mast with multiple headsails and a bowsprit with a jib? I think that this is a very attractive naval vessel that would look good as a crest.

 
Stephen R. Hickman
 
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Stephen R. Hickman
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11 February 2009 23:28
 

Robert Tucker;66495 wrote:

...as the ship on which I did serve is an aircraft carrier, this too is anachronistic and inappropriate.


As a former sailor, I have to ask how a naval vessel would be an inappropriate choice for a sailor’s coat of arms?  IMHO, a sailor who served (thank you!) on an aircraft carrier would do well to have as his crest an aircraft carrier afronte Gris between a pair of sprays Argent.  Cliche, perhaps, but inappropriate?  I think not.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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12 February 2009 07:05
 

Many heraldists since the late 19th century have argued against the use of anachronistic charges; that is, anything that couldn’t have appeared on a 15th century coat of arms shouldn’t appear on a modern coat of arms.

I tend to agree with this as an ideal, although like most things it can be carried to extremes.  If you think of how silly some Victorian arms with pictures of then-cutting-edge technology look today, it will give a hint as to what people 150 years from now will think of arms with our own cutting-edge technology.  In a paradoxical way, shields with really old objects can look more up-to-date than those with new objects.

 
Daniel C. Boyer
 
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Daniel C. Boyer
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12 February 2009 09:20
 

Joseph McMillan;66526 wrote:

Many heraldists since the late 19th century have argued against the use of anachronistic charges; that is, anything that couldn’t have appeared on a 15th century coat of arms shouldn’t appear on a modern coat of arms.

I tend to agree with this as an ideal, although like most things it can be carried to extremes.  If you think of how silly some Victorian arms with pictures of then-cutting-edge technology look today, it will give a hint as to what people 150 years from now will think of arms with our own cutting-edge technology.  In a paradoxical way, shields with really old objects can look more up-to-date than those with new objects.


I agree.  The appearance of the corrugated boiler flue, for example, can look a little ridiculous.  It is generally better to use geometrical charges and lines to suggest such things, which has been done to spectacular effect.

 
Robert Tucker
 
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Robert Tucker
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12 February 2009 11:46
 

Quote:

As a former sailor, I have to ask how a naval vessel would be an inappropriate choice for a sailor’s coat of arms? IMHO, a sailor who served (thank you!) on an aircraft carrier would do well to have as his crest an aircraft carrier afronte Gris between a pair of sprays Argent. Cliche, perhaps, but inappropriate? I think not.

A sailor using a naval vessel in his arms or crest is quite appropriate IMO.  It is that I have issue with using a specific, named ship.  To me it would be claiming I served on that particular vessel.  It would be akin to wearing a medal or an honor I did not warrant, to me it would be false.  (I’m starting to see the argument against using supporters in achievements now.  Haha!)  But, I digress.

To put it simply, Constitution is still afloat, and it is an esteemed honor to serve aboard her.  It is considered a "special duty" assignment in the Navy and 60 top-notch officers and sailors serve aboard her.  That is a special privilege I have not earned.

 

As to the later half of that quote.  Although "a carrier afronte…" sounds appealing, I just don’t think it would be for me.  :D

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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12 February 2009 12:16
 

Robert Tucker;66533 wrote:

As to the later half of that quote. Although "a carrier afronte…" sounds appealing, I just don’t think it would be for me. wink I still have pride for the ship on which I served, so I have to be very careful on how I represent her. So to avoid any misrepresentation of her, or myself, I believe I would just have to leave her striking visage out of the equation. (I know it sounds confusing, it sounds confusing even to me.


An actual image of the ship would replicate the unfortunate habit within the CV community to put pictures of aircraft carriers on every ship’s insignia.

 

But how about something like a blue shield with several silver bars wavy in base, with a silver pile overall, particularly if you could figure out a way to have the pile cutting a bow wave? Put three red stars on the pile, and you have the GW?

 

 

[added later:  For the bow wave, one could use two flaunches abased Argent, each charged with a gorge (a spiral whirlpool pattern) issuant Azure.  I may not be explaining this clearly, but I can see it in my mind, and it looks terrific (of course!) ]

 

Perhaps not good personal arms, but interesting for the ship itself.

 

Or perhaps for a crest, a golden galley, without mast, with a raven rising from it? Alludes to Washington with the raven, while birds on a boat is an aircraft carrier. In a world of FA-18s, replace the raven with a hornet.

 

And so on.

 
Terry
 
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Terry
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12 February 2009 12:28
 

Hi Robert,

I am also a Naval Veteran and a Carrier sailor (USS ENTERPRISE CVN 65 88-92).  When I was designing my crest I decided on emblems that represented my naval service and my love of the ocean (On a wreath Argent and Gules a Sea Lion Argent its tail entwined around the shaft and centre tine of a Trident’s Head issuant Sable) - The Sea Lion represents my love of the Ocean and the Trident represents my Naval service. (feel free to look at my crest in the armory if you would like http://americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Armorial.SarrosT)

 

As a Sailor it is appropriate to use a ship in your crest, but if you’ll permit me, there are also a lot of other options.  Favorite country you visited? (something maybe depicting a westpac?) Don’t remember if you said you were a green shirt or a red shirt, but maybe a customized unique version of your rate badge?  Or even a Sea-Lion/Horse/Dog/Elephant/dragon whatever holding a sword and shield (representing both the offensive and defensive naval mission).

 

These are just some ideas…

 
Dohrman Byers
 
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Dohrman Byers
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12 February 2009 18:22
 

Terry’s suggestions make me think of a winged heraldic sea-lion to represent carrier service.