Ted Kennedy’s Knighthood

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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04 March 2009 01:05
 

Since Ted Kennedy will be getting an honorary knighthood from Queen Elizabeth II I’m just curious if he also has a coat of arms like his presidential brother?

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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04 March 2009 02:25
 

It being understood that Ted Kennedy spent part of his childhood at the Court of St. James and that this is a most appropriate moment for him to be honored, I wonder what exactly the palace is thinking.

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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04 March 2009 03:59
 

I believe they are the same as John Kennedy, and that the arms of the president were those granted to an older member of his living family.

 
Jay Bohn
 
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Jay Bohn
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04 March 2009 06:25
 

According to the Presidential heraldry article, the arms were granted to the President "and the other descendants of his great-grandfather Patrick Kennedy[which language appears in the habendum clause of the grant]." Further, the article indicates that all male line descendents may use the undifferenced arms or add some difference for cadency.

 
egerland
 
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egerland
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04 March 2009 16:24
 

Does the Senator have any papal knighthoods?  He is a very prominent member of the Catholic church.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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04 March 2009 20:55
 

egerland;67146 wrote:

He is a very prominent member of the Catholic church.


Not necessarily one whose relationship with the Vatican is especially favorable, though.

 
Kelisli
 
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Kelisli
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04 March 2009 21:13
 

Jay Bohn;67133 wrote:

According to the Presidential heraldry article, the arms were granted to the President "and the other descendants of his great-grandfather Patrick Kennedy[which language appears in the habendum clause of the grant]." Further, the article indicates that all male line descendents may use the undifferenced arms or add some difference for cadency.


Does the patent actually state that the arms can be used undifferenced or add some difference?  I am under the impression that the Irish Herald insists on the use of cadency marks (similar to those used by the The College of Arms).

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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04 March 2009 21:23
 

It says something like "with due and proper differences," but even the College of Arms now acknowledges that these are optional.  The present Norroy & Ulster King of Arms was one of the authors of the Oxford Guide to Heraldry, in which this was stated, and a recent issue of the Heraldry Society’s Heraldry Gazette included the following statement from Garter King of Arms:


Quote:

I have never favoured the system of cadency unless there is a need to mark out distinct branches of a particular family. To use cadency marks for each and every generation is something of a nonsense as it results in a pile of indecipherable marks set one above the other. I therefore adhere firmly to the view that they should be used sparingly.


I suppose one would have to ask the CHI for an authoritative statement of the Irish view, but I’d be surprised if he’s more committed to the old "rule" than his English counterparts.

 
Kelisli
 
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Kelisli
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04 March 2009 21:37
 

Joe,

Thanks for the clarification on the CoA views on the matter.  I have seen some Irish grants, where brothers arms were differenced on the same patent.  I would be interested in finding out what the current CHoI’s opinion on the matter is.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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04 March 2009 23:41
 

egerland;67146 wrote:

Does the Senator have any papal knighthoods?  He is a very prominent member of the Catholic church.

prominent is not always a good thing especially when you are publicly at odds with the Church on many of its core issues. as such, i am inclined to think the Papacy would not desire to extend a papal knighthood to him. it would be akin to giving a top democratic national committee award to Rush Limbaugh.

 

no politics is intended above only pointing to what i believe the reason would be for not granting one to him

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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05 March 2009 00:12
 

He was awarded the Orden del Ɓguila Azteca in 2008.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Aztec_Eagle

 
eploy
 
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eploy
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08 March 2009 22:35
 

gselvester;67128 wrote:

Since Ted Kennedy will be getting an honorary knighthood from Queen Elizabeth II I’m just curious if he also has a coat of arms like his presidential brother?


Knighthood in what order?

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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08 March 2009 22:53
 

eploy;67229 wrote:

Knighthood in what order?


KBE

Honorary Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire

http://ukinusa.fco.gov.uk/en/newsroom/?view=News&id=14441541

 

Notes for Editors


Quote:

1. Notable American recipients of honorary knighthoods

Leading figures include:

 

* Former Senator John WARNER, of Virginia, for service to British interests, particularly the defence relationship between the UK and the US (2009)

* General James JONES, for services to British interests (2007)

* Mr Elie WIESEL, for services to Holocaust Education (2006)

* Mr William (Bill) Henry GATES, for services to education and the voluntary sector in the UK and for global healthcare (2004)

* Mr Rudolf GIULIANI, for services to the families of those killed on 11 September 2001 (2001)

* Mr Steven Allan SPIELBERG, for services to the British film industry (2000)

* General Colin POWELL, in recognition of his contribution to the Atlantic alliance and to the defence relationship between Britain and the US (1993)

* General Brent SCOWCROFT, for services to UK-US relations (1993)

 

 
eploy
 
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eploy
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09 March 2009 06:30
 

Michael,

Thank you the link.  It appears I guessed right:  Ted Kennedy got an honorary KBE.  I don’t any American has ever received an honorary KCMG.  I believe Reagan, Powell & both Bushes all got honorary KCBs.

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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09 March 2009 18:47
 

eploy;67235 wrote:

Michael,

I don’t any American has ever received an honorary KCMG.


One example of an American KCMG is William Crawford Gorgas.  Others include George Owen Squier, Joseph Strauss, and Lloyd Carpenter Griscom.  I am not aware of a complete list, though.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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09 March 2009 19:08
 

Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf was made a KCB as well.