clan society achievement questions

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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11 March 2009 14:01
 

My family is starting a clan association in an attempt to help better organize reunions and help long-lost members of the family find the rest of us. In addition because there are families who have married in who are very much a part of the "clan" as it were and a society might be the best way to incorporate these other families since they don’t have the same last name. There is talk of making it a non-profit and all so it is legitimate and not some fly by night thing, but I don’t know exactly what route we will take with it to be honest.

So, naturally the heraldry addict in me wants to design an achievement for this organization. If I do so is it considered a corporate design?

 

Could the society then have the achievement printed on shirts and jackets et al so that members of the society could wear them, or is that tacky?

 

What constitutes an “appropriate” achievement for such a society/corporation; shield alone, shield and motto, a crest or no crest, helm or no helm if we have a crest, what kind of helm if we have one, and the dreaded dead-horse question of supporters?

 

I simply don’t know on this one either and any ideas I get I will take back to the rest of my family to discuss and decide upon. Thanks.

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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11 March 2009 15:40
 

Donnchadh;67284 wrote:

So, naturally the heraldry addict in me wants to design an achievement for this organization. If I do so is it considered a corporate design?


From this side of the Atlantic, yes.


Donnchadh;67284 wrote:

Could the society then have the achievement printed on shirts and jackets et al so that members of the society could wear them, or is that tacky?


It’s only tacky if it’s done in a tacky way. When I was at university (20+ years ago) a society of which I was a member used to produce a sweatshirt each year with a different comic book style logo - we had a member who was quite a good artist. That was necessary because it was done as some sort of print onto the cloth and a year of washing would have it start to break up - not a good image for heraldry.

 

However, we found that there was a local business who could convert artwork into embroidery patterns which were then machine sewn, with reasonable prices for quite small runs. That is much more permanent and a good deal less tacky. We had lambswool pullovers and baseball caps done.

 

I’m sure it should still be possible to get that done today.


Donnchadh;67284 wrote:

What constitutes an “appropriate” achievement for such a society/corporation; shield alone, shield and motto, a crest or no crest, helm or no helm if we have a crest, what kind of helm if we have one, and the dreaded dead-horse question of supporters?


To take the example of the Heraldry Society of Scotland, it’s original grant was of arms and motto. The crest came later to commemorate the 10th anniversary - details here. My university waited for its 500th before adding crest and supporters to its arms and motto and St Andrews University only got a grant of supporters as part of the Heraldic Congress held there in 2006 despite being founded 1410x13.

 

If you decide to have a crest and look to the Irish tradition, which tended to follow English models, then a gentleman’s helm (ex supporters) and a knight’s helm (with supporters). Supporters for a long time tended only to be granted to corporate bodies with a royal charter.

 

These days in Scotland the sallet is the standard helm in such circumstances. Perhaps someone who knows more about armour could come up with a helm that is typically Irish but not normally used.

 

There are a number of grants to organisations in the grants section of the HSS website which might give you some ideas.

 

Hope this helps.

 

James

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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11 March 2009 16:39
 

Thanks James. Great info. I appreciate it.

I think it would be embroidered as I know a man who embroiders the schools stuff for the athletic program there and he is very reasonable and we’ve bartered work between ourselves before.

 

There are several noted helms worn by the Irish that I found on trips there. One that has always caught my fancy was the “Defender’s Helm,” which seems nothing more than a form of the Norman helmets that were found in Ireland as well. An example of such can be seen here: http://livinghistory.ie/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=288&p=4404 Prior to this it was little more than the metal caps, sometimes with cheek flaps, that we see from other Celtic nations pre-10th century.

 

I wouldn’t want to just steal, or copy, the Scottish model of the sallet though I’ve always liked that helm for its sleek appearance! So, we can’t do that really, but it does give inspiration for an “Irish” one like you said.

 

In fact, I’ve been playing with a bookplate design for myself with such a “Defender” in the middle…so maybe I will see if I can adapt this sort of helm to a heater shield…or maybe just use a traditional round shield if I’m going that direction anyway…I dunno. Here’s an image of the design in progress, which is far from complete, where you can see such a helmet on a man:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6858/macgoffdennisbookplates.jpg

 

Thanks for the tip on the organizations who have grants. I’ll look there after this.

 
Arthur Radburn
 
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Arthur Radburn
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12 March 2009 05:00
 

Denny,

Family associations are quite popular in South Africa, particularly among the Afrikaans families, and back in the 1960s the Bureau of Heraldry developed a standard for the arms of such associations.  Perhaps their practice may be helpful to you.


Quote:

So, naturally the heraldry addict in me wants to design an achievement for this organization. If I do so is it considered a corporate design?


In SA, yes it’s a corporate coat of arms.  The association is, legally, a separate entity from its members.  Members may display the arms to indicate their membership, just as they can display, but not personally bear, the arms of colleges, clubs, regiments etc of which they are members.


Quote:

What constitutes an “appropriate” achievement for such a society/corporation; shield alone, shield and motto, a crest or no crest, helm or no helm if we have a crest, what kind of helm if we have one, and the dreaded dead-horse question of supporters?


The SA model is shield only, with motto optional.  No crest or supporters.  The shield always has a plain chief, which (a) identifies it as a family association’s arms, and (b) provides space for individual members of the association to add marks of difference to create personal arms for themselves which are clearly related to the association’s arms.  They can also add crests to their personal arms, and register them in their own names.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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12 March 2009 11:42
 

Denny, you may want to talk with John Duncan about clan associations and how they are built/started/administered. And you may want to adopt the Scottish custom of having a badge made of the crest of whatever achievement you settle on encircled with a strap & buckle for the use of members. It’s dangerous to start the idea that all members of any society are entitled to display & use its arms in their entirety ... it’s a bucket shop just waiting to happen.

 
Jonathan R. Baker
 
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Jonathan R. Baker
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16 March 2009 01:29
 

I would like to say that I really like your bookplate, Denny.  It’s nice that you’ve incorporated different shield shapes without everything looking uncoordinated.  Also, the central scene is laid out very nicely.

 
David E. Cohen
 
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David E. Cohen
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16 March 2009 06:48
 

I’ll put in a ‘me too’ on that, Denny, and add that I’d love to see the finished product!

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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16 March 2009 12:32
 

thanks fellas. we’ll see how it turns out. i’m never really happy with it, so i keep playing around with it, but it’s getting closer to being done.

just in case everyone doesn’t know…the four shields are the ones representing my family, or the four surnames of my grandparents anyway. the rounded ones are native Irish families and so i used the rounded shield to denote them (McGough/McGoff/MacGoff & Meskel). the kite shaped one is of my Norman-Irish family (Hyde). the regular one, though wider and rounded at the base, is of my Hispano-Irish family (O’Connell [Pacheco]).

 

i will be putting either Ó leabharlann Donnchadh mag Eochadha or As leabharlann Donnchadh mag Eochadha (From the library of…) around it…my friends who’ve helped me with the proper translation seem divided, so I’m not sure which one is best yet.

 
ninest123
 
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ninest123
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09 October 2018 23:30
 

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