David E. Cohen;70184 wrote:

Denny may not want to get into it, but I will.    So, any country with no granting authority can’t have ‘real’ heraldry?  In what way is this "valid"?  Just because there is no granting authority, and no register, and in fact it is a hodge-podge, doesn’t mean there is no such thing as American heraldry.  Was all the assumption of arms by nobles throughout Europe before the rise of granting authorities "pseudo-heraldry"?  How about assumed arms in those countries which either never had or no longer have granting authorities?

Number one, Denny’s discussion with me centered on Irish heraldry.

Given the character of Americans and our attitudes on all things nobilary a hodge-podge is about the best that can be said about American pseudo-heraldry: it’s mimicking European recognition through shield design logos.

Now, I know this is not a popular view with enthusiasts, but it is nonetheless an accurate perspective.  The US will never have anything resembling a bonafide heraldic institution because, like Ireland, the concept has unpopular roots and because of the nature of this country it will never be taken seriously.

My viewpoint can be found anywhere in this country and in fact herladic enthusiasts are in the minority. I think heraldry is a fine hobby, however I think that taking it too seriously can backfire.  There is nothing inaccruate in my views on the subject, and my views are widely held by others the world over.

Heraldry in the US is a copy-cat form of a strictly European from of identification, rooted in the English model, that has no sanctions or laws protecting it.  There has been an obscure office religated to the military logo design process, but outside of that herladry as a practice does not exist in this country, nor is it likely too.

Quote:

Is the Scottish model "drawn from" the English model?  They were seperate kingdoms at the time of the appointment of the first Lord Lyon.  I would assume, absent evidence to the contrary, that the institutions in England, Scotland, and indeed the Continent, arose independently, without reference to "models".

As to the Scottish model: it was not until William the Lyon was released from English custody in 1175, and upon his return with Norman Lords making new settlements that heraldry - as we recognize it - begins to show in Scotland.

Heraldry spread to Ireland the same way.

Now. as to any alledged rudeness on my part with respect to Joseph McMillan.  I can only apologize to the forum if my verbage seemed rude.  I was attmpting to identify a causation and note a curiosity for his attitude rather than just forming a complaint: I’ll be more carefull in the future.

Since, despite my declining to engage with this person in this forum, he continues to drag my name into this discussion, I find it necessary to make a brief statement.

In another venue—rec.heraldry—he has accused me of cowardice for not stooping to debate with him about the content of his blog.  Regulars here in the AHS forum will be fully capable of judging the believability of that charge.

As for the back story, I can only suggest that those who are curious visit http://groups.google.com/group/rec.heraldry, enter the search terms "McMillan" and "Greg" and see for themselves.  Note that his posts include the unsigned ones from scotiaga@comcast.net.

Greg,

Out of curiosity, if an heraldic authority is required for real heraldry, then what is the first example of real heraldry (as opposed to pseudo-heraldry)?

Joseph McMillan;70191 wrote:

Since, despite my declining to engage with this person in this forum, he continues to drag my name into this discussion, I find it necessary to make a brief statement.

In another venue—rec.heraldry—he has accused me of cowardice for not stooping to debate with him about the content of his blog.  Regulars here in the AHS forum will be fully capable of judging the believability of that charge.

 

As for the back story, I can only suggest that those who are curious visit http://groups.google.com/group/rec.heraldry, enter the search terms "McMillan" and "Greg" and see for themselves.  Note that his posts include the unsigned ones from scotiaga@comcast.net.

I will just say that with respect to unsigned posts: that was a software glitch apparently and several posters user names showed as email addresses for some time, others had their user name come up.  I don’t know the software.

As for Joseph entering this discussion, I was curious as to why you go on rec.heraldry and make sport of nearly everything I say, but over here you keep a distance?  My opinions are just as valid as yours.  What I said was that your apparent need to pick on someone showed a flawed character that relfected cowardice: a gang mentality.  I believe that’s true.  I do my best not engage in it and am very sentitive to those I see being the victim of it: which was the root of my difficulty with the HSS.  So I challenged you in kind on that subject alone.  Your initial comment was not topical and was in fact sarcastic: I just asked why you don’t do that here as well.  It’s been your habit on the HSS forum and rec.heraldry so you seem to be masking that character trait in this venue - seems unusual, maybe not: that’s why I was asking.

Michael Swanson;70192 wrote:

Greg,

Out of curiosity, if an heraldic authority is required for real heraldry, then what is the first example of real heraldry (as opposed to pseudo-heraldry)?

Think of this like tartan: it has its roots in place, design and meaning.  What was the first real tartan?  By the time heraldry entered the US as a country the practice was over 600 years old and it was in fact introduced through English overlordship, and the elite were the only ones using it.  The idea that elite framers had their own heraldic devices may be true, but they assumed them as was their choice: The US did not add it’s own speciality to the concept, nor did it further validate heraldry as a practice in this country.

Now if a group of Americans get together to design and register an American Tartan of some sort that has no connection to Scotland other than the word taratn: what would you call it?

The effect is vastly different and to those schooled in tartan and Scottish history, it seems sometimnes rather ridiculous: Burberry tartan?  Corporate tartan?

American heraldry?

Greg;70190 wrote:

Given the character of Americans and our attitudes on all things nobilary a hodge-podge is about the best that can be said about American pseudo-heraldry: it’s mimicking European recognition through shield design logos.

Now, I know this is not a popular view with enthusiasts, but it is nonetheless an accurate perspective.  The US will never have anything resembling a bonafide heraldic institution because, like Ireland, the concept has unpopular roots and because of the nature of this country it will never be taken seriously.

What is so wrong with a hodge-podge?  Why does it need to be orderly?  Why should there be an institution?  None of this means that American heraldic practice isn’t heraldry.  And I wouldn’t call it "mimicking".  To use your vocabulary, think of it rather as following the European "model".

Greg;70190 wrote:

My viewpoint can be found anywhere in this country and in fact herladic enthusiasts are in the minority. I think heraldry is a fine hobby, however I think that taking it too seriously can backfire.  There is nothing inaccruate in my views on the subject, and my views are widely held by others the world over.

Indeed.  Taking it too seriously can backfire. 

Greg;70190 wrote:

Heraldry in the US is a copy-cat form of a strictly European from of identification, rooted in the English model, that has no sanctions or laws protecting it.  There has been an obscure office religated to the military logo design process, but outside of that herladry as a practice does not exist in this country, nor is it likely too.

Obviously, American heraldry derives from European (not just English) heraldry.  So does the heraldry of every nation outside Europe.

Copyright and trademark laws do protect American heraldry, to an extent, though it is not a good legal fit.  However, heraldry needs neither sanction nor protection to be heraldry.  While it may only be of interest to a small minority, heraldry as a practice has, does, and will likely continue to exist in America.

Greg;70190 wrote:

As to the Scottish model: it was not until William the Lyon was released from English custody in 1175, and upon his return with Norman Lords making new settlements that heraldry - as we recognize it - begins to show in Scotland.

Which doesn’t mean that Scottish "model" derives from the English "model".

Greg;70194 wrote:

Now if a group of Americans get together to design and register an American Tartan of some sort that has no connection to Scotland other than the word taratn: what would you call it?

The effect is vastly different and to those schooled in tartan and Scottish history, it seems sometimnes rather ridiculous: Burberry tartan?  Corporate tartan?

 

American heraldry?

Forget about America for a moment.  What was the first example of real heraldry?

Greg;70179 wrote:

When it comes to Irish heraldry, the model by which it operates is drawn from the English model, as does Scotland, yet even Scotland seperates itself from The College and Ireland by virtue of the motto over.

One assumes from the above sentence that you are referring to the practice of the Lyon Court of placing the motto over the shield and/or crest.

This has always struck me as a bit odd as for hundreds of years the only words placed above the shield (in France, Spain, Scotland & other countries) were the cri-de-guerre and at a much latter date, a (rare) second motto. When modern Scottish arms possess both a motto and cri-de-guerre, they are placed in the historical positions, that being the motto below the arms and the cri-de-guerre above the shield and/or crest. So why exactly does the Lyon Court place the motto over the shield and/or crest when no cri-de-guerre is possessed by the armiger?

Greg;70179 wrote:

David, you may ignor (sic) my writing all you like, but it will not change my views, my experiences, my values nor my intent.

I am at a rare loss of words in response to your statement.

DAP

Greg;70194 wrote:

The effect is vastly different and to those schooled in tartan…..

Please tell us Greg, if you have been "schooled" in tartan? What did this rigorous training entail and who was your teacher, instructor or professor? Can you weave a tartan on a loom or is your knowledge, such as it may be, purely theoretical?

Greg;70179 wrote:

The American style of heraldic display is a pseudo-heraldry in my view.

Obviously, almost no one who participates in this forum assents to this view, so what is the point of advancing it here?

Of course there is no official governmental register for tartans in Scotland (a different situation than taht of arms). Tartans are registered in private registers (much like American coats of arms) such as the one at http://www.tartans.scotland.net/ or other private initiatives.

There is at least one registered American Tartan - quite a handsome design.

http://www.tartans.scotland.net/Tartans/wr464r.gif

I thought it was also a good time to include my arms in my signature line backed by the Polish Tartan.

yes, that is nice George. a lovely combination of tartan and arms.

Actually, Scotland just set up a national regristry under the National Archives of Scotland - A government authority for tartan registration that can be found here:

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/

The Scottish Tartans Authority and several others have relinquished their registration roles and provided their databases to the Scotish Registry of Tartans.  I do not see a reference to the government organization on Tartans of Scotland, but they are a private company who may not want to give up their registry function even though the Scottish Register of Tartans Act established the office.  The Act can be read here:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2008/pdf/asp_20080007_en.pdf

Kathy, thanks. Seems I’m out of date.

The tartan register is interesting legislation - it simply creates an archive and inline database that accumulates, with the permission of previous private registers, records of tartan designs already in use and provides a way for those who invent new designs ro place those on the list. This might seem to be an interetsing model for an American heraldic register of assumed arms and designs already in use - nothing about worthiness of recipients, nothing about the government granting, etc. Create a mechanism to maintain a database of designs in use that discourages infringement and maintains minimal quality (along the lines of the Scottish register’s is this a tartan?) while creating a database that helps others learn more about this heritage. It also maintains no exclusivity nor creates any requirement to register. All in all there would seem to be little to object to in such a thing.

So teh American tartan is now officially registered. Hmmm.

Michael Swanson;70197 wrote:

Forget about America for a moment.  What was the first example of real heraldry?

I would have to say the Knights Templar with the red cross painted on surcoats and shileds and banners.  I f you have a noher example, tell us.

David Pritchard;70199 wrote:

Please tell us Greg, if you have been "schooled" in tartan? What did this rigorous training entail and who was your teacher, instructor or professor? Can you weave a tartan on a loom or is your knowledge, such as it may be, purely theoretical?

Wow, seems your fight is on.  I spent several years reading and learning from designers.  I was also asked to sign on to MP Jammie McGrigger’s tartan bill, which has of course passed.  He evidently was another one that believed I have a well grounded knowledge of it.  Do you weave and have a working knowkledge of warp and weft? Thread count, ground colors, guards, etc etc?

But you’re spinning off the subject aren’t you?