Time to get everyone’s opinion on an issue I had not too long ago.
Two years ago while standing in line for the calling of the clan’s at Quechee Scottish Festival, two other Johnstones and myself were discussing flags and trying to find a way to make out tent really stand out. One member made mention of a picture of the Chief’s standard that was on our website, and thought it would be neat to have that and fly it. So I took it upon myself to re-created it this past winter and spring. All during the construction of it, I was doing as much research about it as I could; visiting the Lord Lyon’s website and everywhere on the net that involved or made mention of clan chief standards. Once it was done I emailed pictures of it around, and they were forwarded to everyone who is anyone in Clan Johnston/e in America. Almost everyone thought it was one of the coolest things they had seen in some time, the remainder of the people, mostly just two, made me feel like I had just killed a puppy.
What they kept saying was that I have no right or authority to display the Chief’s crest without the belt and buckle. This I understood, BUT, as the Lord Lyon’s pamphlet on standards clearly states: "It is used to mark the assembly point or Headquarters of the Clan or following, and does not necessarily denote the presence of the Standard’s owner as the personal banner does."
Link: http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/375.html
My question is this: How is his standard to be used as a rallying flag even if he is not there, if no one but himself can display his coat of arms, of which his standard is a major part?
Pics for proof:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/shargrath666/09-0320009.jpg
The day after I finished…..no wind so i had to rig up a dowl with hooks to display it vertically.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/shargrath666/DSC00218.jpg
The night I finished it, had not punched the grommets yet though.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/shargrath666/DSC00221.jpg
Other side.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/shargrath666/AnnandaleRallyFlag.gif
That is all I had to go from.
What I was told, was that I had to change it. They said I needed to put the Chief’s crest inside a belt and buckle. To that I argued that to change it, would make it not the Chief’s standard. So, unfortunatly it sits, folded up in a bag I made for it, as I am not allowed to display it. I did even go so far as to email the Chief himself. I did get one reply from him before the higher ups in CJA told him they would handle it.
Opinions please.
I will withhold comment on the holier-than-the-Moderator people who frequent Scottish games, but it seems to me that if the chief’s standard flies at his headquarters even if he’s not there, it is stretching things more than a bit to fly it a tent at a games when he’s not even in the same country.
Putting a strap and buckle around the crest on the standard, however, is, as you correctly note, totally absurd.
I would suggest the adoption of a coat of arms for the local branch of the clan society and then having a banner made of that. You’ll still get busybodies telling you you can’t display any arms at a Scottish event unless they’re matriculated in Lyon Register. In response to this assertion that the writ of Scottish law runs at any Scottish cultural event in the United States, you should then feel free to beat them to a bloody pulp, then insist that they file any charges with a Scottish policeman.
I think the leaflet from Lyon says it all, it’s just in the inflection.
A clan tent at a highland games is a place of assembly for members of the clan - not the place of assembly, namely the headquarters of the Chief.
Joseph McMillan;73081 wrote:
I will withhold comment on the holier-than-the-Moderator people who frequent Scottish games, but it seems to me that if the chief’s standard flies at his headquarters even if he’s not there, it is stretching things more than a bit to fly it a tent at a games when he’s not even in the same country.
Putting a strap and buckle around the crest on the standard, however, is, as you correctly note, totally absurd.
I would suggest the adoption of a coat of arms for the local branch of the clan society and then having a banner made of that. You’ll still get busybodies telling you you can’t display any arms at a Scottish event unless they’re matriculated in Lyon Register. In response to this assertion that the writ of Scottish law runs at any Scottish cultural event in the United States, you should then feel free to beat them to a bloody pulp, then insist that they file any charges with a Scottish policeman.
I understand what you are saying Joseph, but in my defence, I could find nothing that said I was not allowed to have and display it. It may be a stretch to say I can fly it even if he is not in the country, but his proximity to the standard seems to have no regulation either, as far as the Lord Lyon is concerned anyway. His naritive on the standard made it seem as though I could have it.
As a result of this, I have designed a standard for Clan Johnston/e in America which I have started to make. My disclaimer is that I had nothing to do with the coat of arms on it. Someone had designed it long before I showed up, though the overall design is mine.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/shargrath666/CJAStandardPrototype-6withoutstated.jpg
Without State Designation
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/shargrath666/CJAStandardPrototype-6withstatedesi.jpg
With State Designation
Not the first time I have seen lettering on a banner, but having a ‘/’ present is definitely a first for me.
Kenneth Mansfield;73095 wrote:
I think the leaflet from Lyon says it all, it’s just in the inflection.
A clan tent at a highland games is a place of assembly for members of the clan - not the place of assembly, namely the headquarters of the Chief.
That was my understanding as well. The person who really gave me the most grief was the Chief Commissioner in North America (personal representitive of the Chief), a position designated by the Chief himself…so I pretty much had to let it go.
David E. Cohen;73097 wrote:
Not the first time I have seen lettering on a banner, but having a ‘/’ present is definitely a first for me.
To be inclusive I had to include that, otherwise I’m sure I could not have gotten the council’s approval.
Since this is basically about Scottish heraldry, I would suggest that you also post a thread on the subject on the forum of The Heraldry Society of Scotland as well. They may very well give valuable advice! They already have several discussions about Flying Heraldry, and would doubtless welcome another one!
Joseph McMillan;73081 wrote:
You’ll still get busybodies telling you you can’t display any arms at a Scottish event unless they’re matriculated in Lyon Register. In response to this assertion that the writ of Scottish law runs at any Scottish cultural event in the United States, you should then feel free to beat them to a bloody pulp, then insist that they file any charges with a Scottish policeman.
This argumentiveness about what is proper on the part of Scottish heraldist is why I no longer belong to the Heraldry Society of Scotland nor ever visit their forum.
May I suggest that you simply fly a very long Scandinavian style wimpel (vimpel) of the livery colours to denote the rallying point? This would certainly be non-controversial and not require the inclusion of a "/". If you purchased the ready made black and white vimpel/pennant of the Finnish region of Kymenlaakso your problem could be solved without anymore grief.
I think, as others have stated in various ways, the difference is in that it must be his rallying point, when what you had was your rallying point. Also, standards are usually reserved for those given rank by the Crown, and despite the playful creation of such things, is a bit useless to anyone else.
Why not something like a guidon in shape and size. The hoist can have the impaled American arms and Scottish saltire, with the flag per fess argent and sable, and the two spelling variations written across in reversed tinctures.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c17/xanderliptak/Untitled.jpg
xanderliptak;73108 wrote:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c17/xanderliptak/Untitled.jpg
I am not a fan of lettering on either shields or flags, but something along these lines strikes me as a nice way to go.
David E. Cohen;73109 wrote:
I am not a fan of lettering on either shields or flags, but something along these lines strikes me as a nice way to go.
I agree with you about lettering, although I understand that it is common to include a motto in a standard (which, based upon prior posts, this flag is specifically intended not to be).
I question the use of the U.S. arms in the hoist. If you cannot use the chief’s arms, why should you be able to use a sovereign’s arms?
Jay Bohn;73113 wrote:
I agree with you about lettering, although I understand that it is common to include a motto in a standard (which, based upon prior posts, this flag is specifically intended not to be).
I question the use of the U.S. arms in the hoist. If you cannot use the chief’s arms, why should you be able to use a sovereign’s arms?
Does the U.S. flag represent an actual person ("the Sovereign") as does, say, a lion rampant in a double tressure?
Only the seals of the U.S. are restricted, and there is nothing restricting the use of the American arms as far as I know. In this case, it would only show allegiance, and be an alternative to using the U.S. flag in the hoist, as the arms are owned by the state and no sovereign.
But, as an option, here is the flag instead of the arms in the hoist.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c17/xanderliptak/Untitled-1.jpg
I’m not a fan of these standards (although I’m sure everyone appreciates the efforts put into the designs). The historical design aesthetics and uses notwithstanding, couldn’t a banner of the clan association’s arms serve the same purpose - to identify your group’s headquarters?
I’ll join those who appreciate Lyon Court’s diligence, but at the same time become perplexed with its rigidity.
That is the intention of this desgin Ben.
http://americanheraldry.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=33&pictureid=321
The problem with the other designs offered is that, and these are what I am guessing the CJA council would say, is that Canada is left out and the CJA arms are left out. The basic idea was to start with the chief’s standard as a template, and alter it to make it ours. One of my initial prototypes had "Lochwood" still on it, and they (the council) though "Johnston/e" would be more fitting, as the organization is call Clan Johnston/e in America.
