Perhaps the best solution is to use something colourful and heraldic that has no heraldic significance. I am a great fan of gonfannons because they have the advantage of being designed to be viewed in still air conditions. On a still day banners, standards, guidons or pinsels all look like multi-coloured rags.
The gonfannon below of the arms of St Andrews was presented by the 2006 Congress of Genealogical and Heraldic Sciences to the local Community Council as a memento of the Congress. It features the arms of the town (St Andrew impaling an oak tree & boar) with its name and motto so there would be room on a similar one for the surname/s and the society name. That is useful to the heraldically illiterate majority.
http://www.congress2006.com/StAndrewsCouncillors.jpg
A further gonfannon was presented to the university showing a different format that perhaps looks more obviously heraldic.
http://www.congress2006.com/StAndrewsUniversityGon1.jpg
The good thing about them is that in Scottish heraldry they have no specific meaning.
James
Farsot;73130 wrote:
That is the intention of this desgin Ben.
http://americanheraldry.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=33&pictureid=321
The problem with the other designs offered is that, and these are what I am guessing the CJA council would say, is that Canada is left out and the CJA arms are left out.
I think we’re tripping over terminology. A banner (which was also suggested earlier by McMillan - a reminder to myself to make sure I don’t repeat what’s already been said) is the rendering of arms (and only the arms) in a square or rectangle, like a traditional national flag. A standard is the elongated flag you have in mind. Banners of arms aren’t as stringently regulated by Lord Lyon - everyone entitled to arms is untitled to use a banner of them.
Therefore, since your clan association uses arms, such a banner would be perhaps the easiest way to identify your group, without tripping over complicated Scots heraldic practice.
This is admittedly the easiest way out - since you already have a version of the chief’s standard already made, it would be a good idea to find out under what precise circumstances, if any, your association would be allowed to fly it. And there, I’m afraid, I can’t help you further. Perhaps you really need explicit written permission from the chief.
BCT;73133 wrote:
Perhaps you really need explicit written permission from the chief.
That is what the Chief Commissioner to North America told me. In my defense, I couldn’t find anything that said I needed it. Perhaps it is implied since it is his standard, and with that I curse the Lord Lyon for not putting something to that effect in his guidence of heraldric flags.:animlol:
I’ve been doing some research on heraldic flags myself. One interesting prospect I’ve come up with are isännänviiri, Finnish household pennants. They are simple triangular pennants, similar to livery pennants, though flown from a single clip so they can rotate freely.
The Kymenlaakso region pennant is sable and argent, so might be good for your purposes.
Off topic, if someone has some useful links or books reccomendations on flagmaking I’d appreciate if you could drop me a PM. I will probably end up learning to sew in the interest of heraldry! :D
xanderliptak;73120 wrote:
Only the seals of the U.S. are restricted, and there is nothing restricting the use of the American arms as far as I know.
I didn’t say it would be illegal, but even if it is not specifically prohibited by law, wouldn’t such a use of the arms of another be usurpation?
Quote:
. . . as the arms are owned by the state and no sovereign.
The United States is a sovereign, which term is not limited to crowned rulers.
John Mck;73115 wrote:
Does the U.S. flag represent an actual person ("the Sovereign") as does, say, a lion rampant in a double tressure?
See my prior post with regard to whether "sovereign" must mean an individual person.
I don’t know if you intended to move the discussion from the arms to flags. A government’s flag may or may not be a heraldic flag (compare Maryland’s flag, a banner of arms, to Ohio’s, a red, white and blue swallow-tailed design that has nothing to do with the State’s arms). I suspect that those that are not heraldic (in which category I would include the U.S. flag) are really outside the scope of the Forum.
That being said, it is one thing to fly the flag as a patriotic gesture, but another to incorporate it into one’s own design.
But if you notice in the Lord Lyons descriptions, standards end at knights. Unless you are a knight or a Peer, you should not have thought you had a standard to display.
There seems to be some misunderstanding for the flags. A standard should not be used. They have long denoted a person of rank, just like the use of a coronet, it may not be forbidden here, but out of custom should not be done.
Also, if a shield appears on a flag, it is to be viewed as an inescutcheon. So the way your lag is designed, it would be viewed as a shield divided in half vertically, the dexter showing the saltire and the sinister black with an inescutcehon of the associations arms.
If the only problem is lack of the maple leaf, replace the saltire with the Canadian flag. Add an inescutchon in the middle of the two flags that is blue with a white saltire.
Jay Bohn;73136 wrote:
I didn’t say it would be illegal, but even if it is not specifically prohibited by law, wouldn’t such a use of the arms of another be usurpation?
The United States is a sovereign, which term is not limited to crowned rulers.
The People are sovereign in the U.S., the U.S. is just the country. So there is no actual sovereign to use the arms, just the concept of one. So there would never be confusion as to there being the presence of a sovereign. It is just an alternative, much simpler than the 50 stars that the flag would require.
xanderliptak;73166 wrote:
But if you notice in the Lord Lyons descriptions, standards end at knights. Unless you are a knight or a Peer, you should not have thought you had a standard to display.
The ranks described in the Lord Lyon’s guidence is refering to the rank of the standard’s owner (the chief) and not the one who bears it. As is says: "The length of the Standard varies according to the rank of its owner, as follows:" Lord Annandale, being an Earl, means the length of his standard is 5 metres, as he is the owner of the standard.
I’ll copy and paste this again, because people here are giving the same answers as I got from CJA people, and it seems things are being passed over:
"This is a long, narrow tapering flag, granted by the Lord Lyon only to those who have a ¿following¿, such as Clan Chiefs, because it is a ‘Headquarters’ flag. It is used to mark the assembly point or Headquarters of the Clan or following, and does not necessarily denote the presence of the Standard’s owner as the personal banner does."
The second sentence is where I draw the conclusion that I, being one administering or facilitating a rally point for the clan, can display his standard.
Farsot;73173 wrote:
The ranks described in the Lord Lyon’s guidence is refering to the rank of the standard’s owner (the chief) and not the one who bears it. . . .
. . . .
"This is a long, narrow tapering flag, granted by the Lord Lyon only to those who have a ¿following¿, such as Clan Chiefs, . . . ."
[emphasis added]
As the quotations say, the standard belongs to the chief. He can authorize its use withiut his personal presence, but that doesn’t mean that any member of the clan ipso facto has the right to use it. Also, there is probably a distinction between a clan rallying point and that of a clan association.
Jay Bohn;73174 wrote:
As the quotations say, the standard belongs to the chief. He can authorize its use withiut his personal presence, but that doesn’t mean that any member of the clan ipso facto has the right to use it. Also, there is probably a distinction between a clan rallying point and that of a clan association.
You are correct Jay, it is the chief’s standard, I never argued that point with the CJA members. With the Lord Lyon’s description not saying anything about getting his permission, I just ran with it. No doubt it is in fact implied, since it is his standard. If I had only known before hand, I could possibly be able to display it in the future. But since I didnt, CJA members have blocked getting his permission, and me trying to speak directly to the chief only added fuel to their fires.
But you are focusing on the wrong portion. A standard is "granted by the Lord Lyon only to those who have a following". The site could be written so as to clarify terms and regulations and such better, yes, but the information is there, even if presented in a form that is easier understood by those already familiar. The implication is that a grant is needed before you could use a standard, and that you need to be a noble to even apply. The part about the lord not being present is simply to differentiate a standard from a banner.
A standard is simply the wrong idea. A guidon is even questionable, but the smaller flags would hardly be worth the effort, as the generally include little more than the colours and one charge. But altering the guidon like the examples would make it different, even if similar. The gonfalone is also a good option.
Might I put forward one chief’s take on things?
In my past correspondence with The Lady Saltoun she is very interested in and knowledgeable about Scottish heraldry.
Stephen J F Plowman;73184 wrote:
Might I put forward one chief’s take on things?
In my past correspondence with The Lady Saltoun she is very interested in and knowledgeable about Scottish heraldry.
Thats not the first time I’ve seen a clan website stating that. Does seem to contradict what the Lord Lyon says though.:confused:
Farsot;73188 wrote:
Does seem to contradict what the Lord Lyon says though.:confused:
Not necessarily so. She does seem to reserve the Pinsel to herself rather than actually delegating it to another. That might just be another way of publicly restricting its use so that visitors to the website do not get the wrong idea as to what they may use.
As far as Johnstone goes, the Crest banner or Crest gonfanon do seem a safe bet.:D
