Clan Johnston/e in America

 
Farsot
 
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Farsot
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25 November 2009 14:06
 

Some might have seen these arms in another thread, but I wanted to see about a blazon for the CJA arms.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/shargrath666/ges.jpg

sorry the image is so small:(

 

So my attempt:

 

Per pale argent and azure, dexter a saltire sable, sinister bend or in chief a stag head argent, in base three crosslet fitchee argent; on a chief gules, three cushions or, dexter surmounted by a star argent fimbriated sable, center surmounted by the flags of the USA and Canada proper, sinister surmounted by a bale of wheat proper.

 
Farsot
 
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Farsot
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25 November 2009 14:13
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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25 November 2009 17:10
 

Wow.  Well, everything but the kitchen sink, right.

Getting rid of some of the excess and clarifying some points, here is an alternative:

 

Per pale argent a saltire sable and azure a bend Or between a stag’s head couped and three crosslets fitchee in bend argent on a chief gules three cushions Or the first surmounted by a mullet of five points argent fimbriated sable the second an American and Canadian flag the third a garb proper.

 

It looks as though the stag’s head is cut off in a straight line, so couped.  If it is jagged, it would be erased instead.  As for the flags, I can not see if the poles are crossed or not, if so they would be in saltire.  And it may be a small point, but if it can still be done I would suggest the mullet fimbriated be changed to a mullet sable voided argent.  It would allow a thicker black border generally, and would show up better.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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25 November 2009 17:50
 

Xander’s blazon looks good, given the design itself.

Questions (with apologies if already asked & answered elsewhere)—

(1) what is the significance of the sinister half of the desigh (bend between stags head & cross-crosslets), either as a whole or the individual elements/charges?

 

(2) Is this (again, the sinister half) some other historical Johnston(e) coat?  or something designed for this purpose?  (i.e. as part of the arms for clan society?)

 

(3) How committed is the clan society to this overall composite coat?  e.g. was it officially granted by Lyon? (I would guess not)  or officially registered in some way in the US e.g. as a trademark or official corporate seal or some such?  and/or some level of recognition by the Clan Chief (the earl)?

 

Obviously, in the context of earlier discussions here, these questions also imply a rather transparent approach to "might the clan society be open to considering a simpler design?" - but even if not, the information would be of interest.

 
David E. Cohen
 
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David E. Cohen
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27 November 2009 08:38
 

Sorry, it’s so small I really can’t make it out, but if those flags are hung on staffs, and in saltire, then that would need to be specified, otherwise you might get them in fess, and without staffs.

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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27 November 2009 11:47
 

Michael F. McCartney;73554 wrote:

(1) what is the significance of the sinister half of the desigh (bend between stags head & cross-crosslets), either as a whole or the individual elements/charges?


These are a version of the arms of Johnston of that Ilk & Caskieben (Aberdeenshire). The arms tend to have several variations. In a number of cases there are three hart’s heads and the tincture of the metal is sometimes Argent, sometimes Or and in this case a mix.

 

The arms of these northern Johnstons are those of the Earldom of Mar differenced by the replacement of three of the cross crosslets with harts. IIRC they were hereditary foresters of The Garioch, though whether the arms denote a blood relationship or just a feudal relationship I don’t know.

 

Sometimes they are seen quartered with the arms of the southern Johnstones from Annandale but earlier practice seems to have been to use the Mar derived arms alone.

 

Caskieben passed (was bought?) by the Keiths in the 16th or 17th century and was incorporated in what is now Keith Hall.

 

James

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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28 November 2009 19:31
 

James—thanks!  That certainly explains why the clan society would include both coats - two (apparently, from the arms) unconnected families "of that ilk" with nearly the same name—so close as to be orthographically insignificant.

Looking in my tattered copy of Debretts - 1995 edn - I found a Nova Scotia baronet "Johnston of Caskieben, Aberdeenshire (1626) then current (14th) baronet & most of those in line of succession, apparently being a residents of Alabama.  The arms given are essentially Johnston of Annandale (undifferenced) quartered with a coat "Azure on a bend Or between three harte’ heads erased argen attired of the 2nd, three cross-crosslets fitchee of the 2nd"—which must be an error, the cross-crosslet being same color as the bend.  Tge quarter is described as >Mar and Garioch of Caskieben composed together on one caot."  In any case, the composed Caskieben coat is somewhat similar to that used by the clan society.  And to complete the armorial mix, the crest is a phoenix in flames proper—nothing like the Earl of Annandale’s winged spur.

 

Laving aside for the moment the genealogical complexities, too bad the arms aren’t more easily composed.

 

As merely an observation from an outsider, it would seem that a clan society for all named Johnston (or Johnstone—the spelling difference being historically insignificant) would be better advised to stick to the armorial insignia of the recognized chief of the name & arms.  IIRC that is the Earl of Annandale and Hartfell, Johnstone of Annandale and that Ilk—so use some variation of those arms & focus on his crest for badge purposes.  Leave the Caskieben armorials for those of the name who can trace ancestry to Aberdeenshire on or near the Caskieben estate.

 

But as noted, only an observation from an outsider.

 
Farsot
 
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Farsot
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30 November 2009 08:16
 

James, thanks for the info, I was trying to find more about it but was coming up empty.  I am even unable to find who designed these for the society, though I do remember seeing somewhere the name of the person who designed it.  As far as I know, it is not registered anywhere in the US and I highly doubt this was granted by the Lord Lyon.  I will have to ask some of the higher ups in CJA as to who created this and if they might be open to a newer, simpler design.  To be honest, I don’t mind the design, short to the clutter on the cushions.