St. George’s Day

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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25 April 2010 20:47
 

Joseph McMillan;76079 wrote:

I guess it might not be a coat of arms, but it sure looks like one; has all th elements—shield, crest, motto.


:rolleyes: I wasn’t suggesting for a second that they didn’t recognize it as a coat of arms. I was questioning whether they claimed it as their coat of arms. You, as I suspected you would, answered that question. Thanks, Joe.

 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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25 April 2010 20:55
 

Hugh Brady;76115 wrote:

... they invariably use an American Indian as a supporter when making these grants. I think the N.C. Senate has two, and there are probably others.

The Indian supporters on the NC Senate arms, though, are modeled after the paintings of John White, so I don’t think those fall in the same category.

http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Newsletter/008-02.jpg

 
 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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26 April 2010 08:30
 

Kenneth Mansfield;76135 wrote:

The Indian supporters on the NC Senate arms, though, are modeled after the paintings of John White, so I don’t think those fall in the same category.


More to the point, they are taken from the arms on the seal of the Province of Carolina (mirabile dictu NOT granted by the kings of arms, nor by Carolina Herald, but assumed on their own authority by the Lords Proprietors—fancy that!)

 

In fairness to the College of Arms, I can think of a number of devisals to American corporate bodies (the arms of the St. George’s Society are not technically a "grant") that do not have Indians as supporters.

 

- Prince George County, Va - Two cardinals (the bird, not the ecclesiastical dignitary)

 

- Virginia State Senate - Same

 

- Fairfax City, Va - A Lee (can’t remember which one) in colonial attire and a Confederate officer (can’t remember who, maybe Mosby).

 

Some county or other in Virginia has two turkeys, and I think that Advent Cathedral in Birmingham, Ala, has angels, if I remember correctly.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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26 April 2010 09:30
 

Joseph McMillan;76138 wrote:

Some county or other in Virginia has two turkeys,


Charles City County

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/Charles_City_Seal.jpg

 

And Powhatan County has a bison and a white-tailed deer

http://www.powhatanva.com/images/coat.jpg

 

King William Co does have an Indian, along with a colonist.


Quote:

and I think that Advent Cathedral in Birmingham, Ala, has angels, if I remember correctly.


Yes, angels (see http://www.contentedits.com/img.asp?id=19844).  And St. Thomas Episcopal Church in NYC has two choir boys—although I have to wonder by what criteria Garter King of Arms decided that a simple parish vestry rated supporters.

 
Hugh Brady
 
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Hugh Brady
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26 April 2010 11:25
 

I stand corrected on the American Indian supporters.

 
Doug Welsh
 
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Doug Welsh
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29 April 2010 00:48
 

Perhaps Society and College were aghast to discover the City of Moscow bears arms of St. George, and tried to brush away all similarities!    :wookie:

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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29 April 2010 12:23
 

Joseph McMillan;76139 wrote:

And St. Thomas Episcopal Church in NYC has two choir boys—although I have to wonder by what criteria Garter King of Arms decided that a simple parish vestry rated supporters.


They didn’t. The arms were devised for the St. Thomas Choir School. The parish just ended up using the arms as well.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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29 April 2010 13:48
 

gselvester;76222 wrote:

They didn’t. The arms were devised for the St. Thomas Choir School. The parish just ended up using the arms as well.


Well then I wonder by what criteria…

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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29 April 2010 14:38
 

Why can’t a school have supporters? They clearly applied for them in their grant and got them.

There are precedents:

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Wellington_College_crest.png

 

http://www.mtsn.org.uk/images/sce/Compamy coat of arms best for web_wood.jpg

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d1/IpswichSchoolCrest.PNG

 
emrys
 
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emrys
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29 April 2010 14:56
 

I don’t think that the arms of Wellington College were granted because they are an exact copy of the dukes arms.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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29 April 2010 18:03
 

Ditto for the arms of the Merchant Taylors School—these are the arms of the Worshipful Company of Merchant Taylors, used by the school, but not the school’s arms.  And the arms used by the Ipswich School are none other than the royal arms as used by Henry VIII, in whose reign the school was reformed and named "The King’s School."

(One may reasonably ask how it is possible for well-known English educational institutions to be openly using arms belonging to others, given what we read above about why the St. George’s Society couldn’t be "devised" the same arms they’d been using for a century or more.)

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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29 April 2010 19:19
 

Joseph McMillan;76232 wrote:

(One may reasonably ask how it is possible for well-known English educational institutions to be openly using arms belonging to others, given what we read above about why the St. George’s Society couldn’t be "devised" the same arms they’d been using for a century or more.)


Do as I say, not as I do.

 

Apparently a well known English school is fine to display the arms of an English king because, well, that seems all neat and tidy and proper.  We are heathens, though, who can’t even recognise out nation’s arms are not really arms (we call them pieces not palets, oh my!), and could not dare encroach upon something as sacred as the badge of the Garter.  perhaps, though, I am being overly cynical, but I can not shake the notion it has to do with us being not-British.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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29 April 2010 23:30
 

Joseph McMillan;76232 wrote:

(One may reasonably ask how it is possible for well-known English educational institutions to be openly using arms belonging to others, given what we read above about why the St. George’s Society couldn’t be "devised" the same arms they’d been using for a century or more.)


Well, Joe, the next heraldry talk sponsored by the NYG&B will be on the arms of the St. George Society given by its executive director (who is also a member of this Society). So, come to NY for that occasion and ask for yourself.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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29 April 2010 23:40
 

gselvester;76222 wrote:

They didn’t. The arms were devised for the St. Thomas Choir School. The parish just ended up using the arms as well.


Some more homework uncovered the fact that these are indeed the arms of the church (parish) not of the school after all.

 

So why did they merit supporters? Because the King of Arms said so.

 

That was easy. When there is a heraldic authority involved "because I said so" is an answer.

 
Charles E. Drake
 
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Charles E. Drake
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30 April 2010 00:44
 

And of course, it is not so much about why as who. In this case, probably due to the efforts of the Reverend Canon John G.B. Andrew OBE DD, who has been referred to as "Manhattan Pursuivant."