Design Help for a New Member

 
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23 July 2010 04:21
 

tsmith;77854 wrote:

Kenneth- I agree 100%.  I really do like the simplicity of the three snowflakes.  I am not inclined to go back to the semy as I am really liking the three snowflakes along with the erminois field behind the gryphon.  But I am still open to other suggestions.

Travis


I agree with Kenneth.  When designing my own arms, I considered a semy of rain drops for the chief.  From a distance, it was really hard to make out so I changed to just three rain drops.  Simplication cannot be overestimated.

 
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tsmith
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23 July 2010 08:05
 

Okay, what if I drop the erminois altogether?

Thus: Or a gryphon segreant bleu celeste armed and langued gules holding a portcullis argent three snowflakes argent on a chief bleu celeste

 

Would that be a nice solid, simple coat of arms? Good heraldry? Unique enough?

 

Kenneth, would you be so kind to tweak one of the images you have already so kindly put together (just the shield) to reflect this?

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Travis

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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23 July 2010 08:08
 

That sounds better.

Can I persuade you to blazon this "azure" instead of using the bastard color "bleu celeste"?  You can still have your artist emblazon the arms using light blue if that’s what you like.  In heraldry, blue is blue.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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23 July 2010 08:45
 

tsmith;77867 wrote:

Kenneth, would you be so kind to tweak one of the images you have already so kindly put together (just the shield) to reflect this?

As soon as I get a chance, here in a bit.


Joseph McMillan;77868 wrote:

Can I persuade you to blazon this "azure" instead of using the bastard color "bleu celeste"?

I would normally be in complete agreement on this issue, however, if the blue in this particular instance is a reference to the land of the sky-blue waters then it should be sky-blue not only by whatever artists Travis commissions, but also by artists commissioned generations from now and using "bleu-celeste" would ensure that.

 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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23 July 2010 10:52
 

With Joe’s suggestion, of course, these would be the same coat of arms, just with different artistic interpretations - giving you and future generations more room for variation.


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http://a.imageshack.us/img641/3527/smithtravisbleuceleste.png http://a.imageshack.us/img819/576/smithtravisazure.png
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Joseph McMillan
 
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23 July 2010 11:05
 

But if you look at the sky, you will see that it is not necessarily what we call "sky blue," especially when you look straight up.  How do we know that when the Ojibwa or whichever tribe the name Minnesota comes from said "sky blue waters" that they were thinking of the pastel shade we call "bleu celeste?"

For that matter, heraldic writers expressly described Azure as referring to the color of the sky.  Sir John Ferne’s Blazon of Gentrie (1586) says of Azure,


Quote:

Which Blew coulor representeth the Aire amongst the elements, that of all the rest is the greatest fauorer of life, as the only nurse and maintainer of vitall spirits in any liuing creature. The cullor of blew is commonly taken for the cleere skye, which appeareth so, after that the tempests be overblowne, and note fortune to the wearer in all his affayres.


______

* That is, those writing before the English kings of arms introduced bleu celeste to meet the needs of the RAF after World War I.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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23 July 2010 11:08
 

And if you were to have any printing done of your arms using actual Pantone colors, you could use a real metallic gold, which would look more like this (only the gold would be shiny), which would be really nice.


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http://a.imageshack.us/img819/3869/smithtravisgold2.png http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7188/smithtravisgold.png
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tsmith
 
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23 July 2010 12:09
 

While we may not know exactly what shade of blue the Dakota had in mind, we appartently do know that when they explained "minnesota" to European explorers they added a drop of milk to water resulting in "cloudy" or "sky-tinted" water.  And even if bleu celeste does not match the exact shade the Dakota had in mind the fact is that its use does make the allusion to "sky-blue waters" more explicit.

Kenneth articulates very well the reason for using bleu celeste in this particular case.  Nonetheless, I understand and am sympathetic to the argument that traditionally blue is blue, as I am a traditionalist in most things.

 

The question in my mind is whether admitting use of the distinctive tincture "bleu celeste" runs contrary to some fundamental principle of heraldry?  Is heraldry not a living art?  In addition to limiting the tinctures to the original handful, should we not admit new flora and fauna from the Americas, Asia, etc. as charges simply because they were not used in medieval heraldry?

 

I really am interested in answers to these questions.  I realize there are probably many different positions and I have probably strayed a ways off topic.  If one of the administrators wants to start a new thread for this dicsussion in the proper area that is fine by me.

 

Thanks everybody for your input thus far!

 

Travis

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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23 July 2010 12:33
 

The following blazons from the College of Arms use the terms Azure and Or. They are clearly a lighter blue, and very different shades of gold. So I find myself back in concurrence with Joe.


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http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/esher.JPG

http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/frim_cam.JPG
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Kenneth Mansfield
 
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23 July 2010 13:23
 

tsmith;77879 wrote:

The question in my mind is whether admitting use of the distinctive tincture "bleu celeste" runs contrary to some fundamental principle of heraldry?  Is heraldry not a living art?  In addition to limiting the tinctures to the original handful, should we not admit new flora and fauna from the Americas, Asia, etc. as charges simply because they were not used in medieval heraldry?

I really am interested in answers to these questions.  I realize there are probably many different positions and I have probably strayed a ways off topic.  If one of the administrators wants to start a new thread for this dicsussion in the proper area that is fine by me.


I don’t think we need to start a new thread on this, but I think you’ve hit on something here. Heraldry is a living art. And that is sort of the reason that you don’t need to introduce Bleu-Celeste as a color. And if I’d thought about it in these terms I don’t think I would have suggested using it. Just as people come in various shades of skin color, so do the primary heraldic colors.

 

As to the introduction of new flora and fauna, I completely agree. I myself have a groundhog holding a sprig of pine for a crest. You have already mentioned the knack of the CHA for adding this. In many cases, though, even these are likely to be found in one of the traditional heraldic colors or metals. One of the reasons that I think you should stick with repeating the griffin (griffon, gryphon) from your arms in your crest (albeit with a color change) is because it would be nearly impossible to include a Peregrine Falcon without making it proper and I personally don’t like "heraldically" colored fauna in arms combined with naturally colored ones in other parts of the achievement. But that could just be me.

 
 
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28 July 2010 09:24
 

Kenneth,

Back at the start of the thread you said the following about propsoal 2 :


Kenneth Mansfield;77830 wrote:

2) I tried it. It’s awfully busy and the only thing I can think of to make it less so is to drop the roses to allow the other charges to be larger. If you’re concerned that isn’t unique enough, put a fleur-de-lys in base?


Did you happen to save the image you put together?  You suggested dropping the roses and perhaps putting a fleur-de-lys in base, which would be fine by me.  Would you be willing to put together an emblazonment of this proposal as well (without the roses and with the fleur in base) so that I could do some refrigerator testing of the various designs?

 

I certainly don’t want to impose and you have been very gracious up to this point.  Thank you so much for putting together all of those emblazonments and for the private message containing the entire acheivement.  I have greatly appreciated your input.

 

Thanks again!

 

Travis

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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28 July 2010 10:32
 

tsmith;77983 wrote:

Did you happen to save the image you put together?  You suggested dropping the roses and perhaps putting a fleur-de-lys in base, which would be fine by me.  Would you be willing to put together an emblazonment of this proposal as well (without the roses and with the fleur in base) so that I could do some refrigerator testing of the various designs?

I hadn’t saved it, but it isn’t difficult to recreate. Personally, I don’t care for either of these.


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http://a.imageshack.us/img842/7708/smithtravis2.png http://a.imageshack.us/img713/4341/smithtravis2b.png
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Dale Challener Roe
 
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28 July 2010 10:36
 

Kenneth Mansfield;77984 wrote:

Personally, I don’t care for either of these.


Agreed.  Although possibly without the ermines and additional charges…

 
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28 July 2010 10:44
 

Kenneth,

Thanks for the quick reply.  I, like both you and Dale, don’t really care for either of these designs.  The only way it might work in my view is with just the gryphon and maybe retaining the ermine fields.  Would that look any better?

 

Travis

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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28 July 2010 11:07
 

tsmith;77986 wrote:

The only way it might work in my view is with just the gryphon and maybe retaining the ermine fields.  Would that look any better?

Yes, but not by much.


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http://a.imageshack.us/img227/5072/smithtravis2c.png
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