Caledonian Society of Cincinnati

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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25 July 2010 15:14
 

As near as I can tell, the Caledonian Society of Cincinnati has no coat of arms. I was thinking of writing to them to ask if they had ever considered petitioning Lyon for arms and then thought I might simply propose to help them design some. Below is what I thought I might start with and I wanted to solicit your thoughts.

Per fess wavy Azure and Argent in chief a Saltire Argent between four Buckeye leaves Or in base three Bars wavy Azure. And for a crest a Buckeye Tree proper penetrated transversely in the main stem by a frame saw proper the frame Or.


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Rationale: The division of the field is really because I tried lots of other stuff, but nothing else seemed to work well. The Saltire in chief should be obvious. The bars wavy in base come directly from the Cincinnati flag. There are also Buckeye leaves on the flag, though there they are red. I have made these Or not only to adhere to the tincture rule, but because Buckeye leaves turn yellow in the fall. The Buckeye is the state tree of Ohio. The waves in the flag are meant to represent the Ohio River and can here, but also can represent the ocean separating the Society from Scotland. Cincinnati resides in Hamilton County and the crest is a nod to Clan Hamilton whose crest badge is an oak tree in the same situation (albeit coming out of a Ducal coronet). The legend behind Ohio being the Buckeye State is that a member of the expedition party, having just cut down a buckeye claimed it to be the first tree felled on that side of the Ohio River, so the allusion to Clan Hamilton works double duty.

 
 
Kelisli
 
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Kelisli
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25 July 2010 20:37
 

I like the rationale and the design.  Simple and elegant.  Nicely done smile

 
J. Stolarz
 
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J. Stolarz
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26 July 2010 09:38
 

There’s not much to suggest when you already have come up with a beautiful design.  I like your rationale as well, it seems to go well together.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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26 July 2010 12:01
 

Kenneth,

Very nice design.  I wonder if you might think of lowering your upper bar wavy so that it doesn’t meet the lower extremities of the saltire—perhaps instead of "Per fess wavy…" it could work as "Azure in chief a saltire Argent between four buckeye leaves Or, in base three bars wavy Argent."

 

Also, the resemblance between the Hamilton cinquefoils and the Ohio buckeyes (nice tree; silly name for a football team) suggests a possible coat of arms for Hamilton County:  Gules three buckeye leaves Ermine.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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26 July 2010 12:07
 

The Cincinnati Caledonian Pipes and Drums was affiliated with the Caledonian Society of Cincinnati from about 1912 until 1973. It is now a separate entity, although still closely tied to the Society. I was thinking about designing an "indeterminate cadet" version of the arms of the Society (should they assume or be granted any) and proposing them to the pipe band. Using the design in the beginning of the thread, does anyone with a good knowledge of Scottish practices have any suggestions? I was thinking a border of some kind would be the obvious solution.

The real hurdle would be convincing them to abandon the "logo" they currently use, which they seem to be rather attached to.

 

http://www.cincypipesanddrums.org/themes/sky/images/band_logo.jpg

 

OT: You can see yours truly playing with the CCP&D back in 2007 at the Ohio Scottish Games. It’s a little rocky in places, but the drum corps took 2nd in this performance (band 3rd overall). I’m the snare drummer to the far left. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9vWbtLKjN0

 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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26 July 2010 12:47
 

Joseph McMillan;77945 wrote:

Very nice design.  I wonder if you might think of lowering your upper bar wavy so that it doesn’t meet the lower extremities of the saltire—perhaps instead of "Per fess wavy…" it could work as "Azure in chief a saltire Argent between four buckeye leaves Or, in base three bars wavy Argent."

Thank you for the suggestion, Joe. I think this is better.


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Quote:

Also, the resemblance between the Hamilton cinquefoils and the Ohio buckeyes (nice tree; silly name for a football team) suggests a possible coat of arms for Hamilton County:  Gules three buckeye leaves Ermine.


Added to the list. wink

 
 
J. Stolarz
 
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J. Stolarz
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26 July 2010 13:28
 

I think I like that a little better as well.  Looks a little more evened out.

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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26 July 2010 15:48
 

Kenneth Mansfield;77946 wrote:

The real hurdle would be convincing them to abandon the "logo" they currently use, which they seem to be rather attached to.

http://www.cincypipesanddrums.org/themes/sky/images/band_logo.jpg

 


The "logo" is quite interesting in that the supporters (and even part of the "gas bracket") are obviously the leopards from the arms of Aberdeen. The city is determinedly attached to the "gas bracket" and insists on it in every matriculation, in the same way it always drops any new-fangled mural coronet devised by the Lord Lyon for the latest form of civic government.

 

The charges on the shield are more of a mish-mash. The caberfeidh and motto are those of the cap badge of the former Seaforth Highlanders, but they did not use the crown until their amalgamation with the Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders in 1961. At that time a crowned thistle was placed between the antlers.

 

It would be interesting to know of any reasoning behind the choice of charges, which suggests some sort of mixed Ross-shire and Aberdeen link. I wonder what tartan they wear? In some videos it looks like Mackenzie and in others Gordon (though not pleated the military way).

 

As for the suggested new arms, I liked the original but think the revised version is better. I’m no great fan of saltires (especially ones cantoned by other charges) being squeezed into/onto a chief. They become distorted quite badly. The late heraldic banner maker and HSS Chairman Patrick Barden made the point very forcefully in an article in Double Tressure and it is a point that has stuck with me ever since.

 

James

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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26 July 2010 15:49
 

Agreed—the modified version is better.

RE: the buckeye leaves—tho’ I was born in Ohio, we left for California before I ever saw AFAIK a buckeye tree—for that matter, I never have seen one either in real life or drawn until now.  Nice charge, nice allusion!—though you might get some wag who indents the edges of the leaves to suggest ... something that I’m told by relatives, grows wild along the railroad rights-of-way in that part of the country…  smile

 

As for the pipe band—while Lyon would I’m sure never allow it as is, nor IMO would the royal crown on the shield pass muster under our AHS Guidelines, you might let those concerns ride for the time being.  If the Society itself buys into your design (and if the band hasn’t already done so with their old arms), perhaps you could craft a pipe banner of the new arms for presentation to the band’s lead or champion piper, or otherwise chosen, as the (honorary?) piper to the Society.  Or for the #2 piper if #1 already has a pipe banner.

 

Likewise, if the pipe band has more than one bass drummer, offer to decorate the #2 drum with the Society’s new arms—leaving the #1 drum "as is."

 

Either or both of these moves would help publicise the new Society arms, both to the public & to the band members,  without disparaging or criticising the band’s old arms.

 

If at some point the band came to prefer the Society arms, then offer them a differenced version—a simple bordure OR, or possibly compony counter-compony Or & Azure, or whatever might suit both groups.  (If the new Society arms were formally granted by Lyon, of course that would require a matriculation with the requisite fees, & Lyon would choose or at least have to allow the particular brisure.)

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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26 July 2010 16:00
 

James Dempster;77950 wrote:

The charges on the shield are more of a mish-mash. The caberfeidh and motto are those of the cap badge of the former Seaforth Highlanders, but they did not use the crown until their amalgamation with the Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders in 1961. At that time a crowned thistle was placed between the antlers.

It would be interesting to know of any reasoning behind the choice of charges, which suggests some sort of mixed Ross-shire and Aberdeen link. I wonder what tartan they wear? In some videos it looks like Mackenzie and in others Gordon (though not pleated the military way).


Some early members of the band were former members of the Seaforth Highlanders. The band wears the McKenzie tartan to honor them. They used to wear the darker McKenzie with military pleats, but now wear the ancient McKenzie.


Michael F. McCartney;77951 wrote:

If at some point the band came to prefer the Society arms, then offer them a differenced version—a simple bordure OR, or possibly compony counter-compony Or & Azure, or whatever might suit both groups.  (If the new Society arms were formally granted by Lyon, of course that would require a matriculation with the requisite fees, & Lyon would choose or at least have to allow the particular brisure.)


I was actually thinking of a counter-compony bordure Or and Azure. Nice to know that wasn’t completely out of left field.

 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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27 July 2010 15:26
 

Here is the complete achievement (sans motto) with the appropriate helmet for an organization according to Lyon.


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Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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27 July 2010 15:29
 

Potential for the offshoot pipe band…


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Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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27 July 2010 17:53
 

Kenneth,

If the society decides to shell out $3245 for a Lyon grant, they will presumably get the ugly sallet helm, as you show, which a previous Lyon decided was appropriate for corporate bodies.  (Unless the new and very enlightened Lord Lyon decides to jettison that as he has some other positions of his predecessors.)

 

But if they are to assume the arms on their own, I would suggest a more normal helm—affronty to align properly with the crest, of course.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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28 July 2010 14:58
 

Joseph McMillan;77976 wrote:

But if they are to assume the arms on their own, I would suggest a more normal helm—affronty to align properly with the crest, of course.

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Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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28 July 2010 15:44
 

Ahh, much better!